gbflyer wrote:This is an excellent subject, I have an interest in it as a father with a teenager who has the bug.

I wonder how one can encourage today's young people to become professional pilots and sleep at night. Really...what are we talking here...probably $100K student loan debt if that's the chosen route to go from private through ATP at a 141 school? Then live below the poverty line while enduring furloughs and layoffs at the regionals filling in as a flight instructor? Perhaps a corporate job sitting around at some FBO sleeping on the couch after the cabin is cleaned and the head swabbed? Then one little mistake...miss an altitude, turn the wrong way on a taxiway...get caught copping a few Z's...lip - off to an obnoxious TSA...think outside the flight manual...and the Feds are up your ass with a microscope and you lose your job.

Seems like the system is seriously flawed as too many pilots are willing to do it for nothing, and the airlines are taking advantage of that. Again, hard to encourage a youngster to take up the trade. From you guys that are doing it now (not you retired old timers who had it good...pretty stewardesses, good food...good pay...respect of your managers), what are the good points?

Thanks in advance,

gb

I listen to several old timers, a few of which went bottom to top and top to bottom in the airline industry. Seems as if you can't encourage a young person to get into 121 flying for a living and still sleep at night, if you try it with a middle aged person you may get punched. Maybe not for all the reasons you mentioned, but certainly from a 'job security and potential' standpoint and from a "dangerous debt" standpoint. Doing what Bob is doing makes more sense.

What Rob said, more or less. I grappled with this when I was in college back in the 90s, I just couldn't see paying what it would taken out of pocket to get all the ratings. A passive interest in the military became an active one once I learned about the aviation career opportunities. While still in college the Marine Corps paid for 25 hours toward a PPL, I paid the balance to finish up the ticket. That's the last thing I paid for aside from a tailwheel endorsement and my own flying. After finishing Naval flight school I took all my paperwork to the FSDO and they gave me my Commercial & Instrument tickets, I later added a Powered Lift rating (more for novelty than anything), and last year I added CFII once the FAA acknowledged military IP qualifications. Medicals - don't pay for those. BFRs - don't pay for those either. In the process I've gotten to play with some of the coolest hardware on the planet.

Obviously the military isn't for everyone but there are still great opportunities to be had in all of the branches. The important distinction is that the military isn't just looking for pilots, they're looking for officers. Duties will include plenty out of the cockpit and the more time you spend in the business the more likely it is you will spend entire tours out of the cockpit.

If flying in the military isn't in the cards, even enlisting in the reserves may earn qualification for the new GI Bill. Those benefits could be used in programs such as those mentioned above to earn a number of ratings, not to mention college tuition. My advice to college bound folks today would be to avoid going into debt if at all possible, the GI Bill would do a lot to help toward that goal.

A final important consideration is that, like it or not, UAVs are rapidly becoming a prominent segment of military aviation and I'm convinced it won't be long before the technology trickles down to civilian applications. Anyone considering military aviation needs to be aware of the increasing odds that they will end up flying a mouse. That prospect generally doesn't get a red-blooded American kid fired up but the times they are a changing, adapt or starve. A solid degree in aerospace engineering/technology followed by a well compensated career in the unmanned field would easily facilitate whatever flavor of GA flying the mouse jockey prefers.

Thanks Vick and others.

gb

There are lots of jobs in aviation, and if a young person really wants to fly for a living, and does a good job preparing for that career, it can be done. We've got recent graduates who are game warden/pilots, agricultural pilots, law enforcement officers, flight instructors, fire patrol pilots, and yes airline pilots.

Jobs are out there, but the paradigm has changed. I second and third Vick's suggestions re: the military route. The new Chapter 33 GI Bill benefit is HUGE, folks, whether you get into a pilot slot in the military or not.

There are a LOT of professional pilots who are into their 60s now, and many of those folks will be retiring soon.

Think carefully what it is you want to do with your life. I'm not a big fan of degrees in flying, so to speak, as are offered by many college aviation programs. When an employer looks at your resume, most of them are also going to want to see your TRANSCRIPT. The flying part of the job will require ratings and flight time, but the other part of the job MAY require coursework that's useful to your potential employer.

And, finally, you're not going to graduate from college and walk right into your dream flying job, more than likely. More likely, you're going to have to pay some dues, as a loader in a spray outfit, as a law enforcement officer, as a biologist, or ???? Be prepared, be willing to relocate, and hang in there.

There are jobs out there, and good ones. One of our graduates from 2003 came in to speak to one of my classes yesterday. He's now flying for the government in Alaska working for my old outfit. Decent salary, good benefits, and a job he loves. It took him a few years to get there, some spraying jobs building flight time, and some education, but he got there, and he loves it.

Take them flying. If their heart is really in it, they'll find a way.

Another route: Go to dental school, THEN learn to fly. An old friend of mine in Kodiak once told me that he had the best flying job on the planet. He was a dentist, in private practice, and owned a Super Cub on floats. Not a bad gig, actually.
MTV

When I started college I entered into the aviation program and Utah State University. They had a loan program that could be used to pay for everything. I recall the estimated total being 72K, this was back in 2004. I had my plane at the time but no license. They would let me get my ppl in my plane but everything after that had to be done through them. It ended up not mattering cuz I got married and moved. Ended up getting a degree in Mechanical Engineering and I'm glad I did. Graduated debt free and never had to be below the poverty line. Now I can afford to fly and if I choose I can get additional ratings and fly for work part time.

A friend finished the aviation program at USU and has been flying for a regional for a few years. His starting pay was in the 23k range but he said it improves pretty quick. He did say he made more working for Sheble than he does at the regional. He worked as a wildland firefighter during the summer which allowed him to graduate debt free. If I were dead set on going to a college flight program and did not want to join the military I would be getting a job fighting wildfires in the summer. I love flying but it's not worth going into debt for.

mtv wrote:Take them flying. If their heart is really in it, they'll find a way.

This is the best piece of advice on here. I was told I would never be able to fly for one reason or another and those people were wrong.

mtv wrote:Another route: Go to dental school, THEN learn to fly. An old friend of mine in Kodiak once told me that he had the best flying job on the planet. He was a dentist, in private practice, and owned a Super Cub on floats. Not a bad gig, actually.
MTV

His name wasn't Bill Guy was it?

Do something else, something more lucrative. That way flying will always be a hobby and something you associate with fun and socializing.

I have many friends who are professional pilots and many who own businesses in the aviation industry. The only ones I would consider wealthy didn't get there by piloting an aircraft. They are good businessmen.

Life is an adventure, and probably a better one when you're paid to fly, but in my opinion, the only way to experience the best kind of flying-- in your own backcountry bird with no obligations to anyone else-- is to make some real money and keep the wife and kids happy. Of course this is still theoretical for me.

Zane wrote:Do something else, something more lucrative. That way flying will always be a hobby and something you associate with fun and socializing.

I have many friends who are professional pilots and many who own businesses in the aviation industry. The only ones I would consider wealthy didn't get there by piloting an aircraft. They are good businessmen.

Life is an adventure, and probably a better one when you're paid to fly, but in my opinion, the only way to experience the best kind of flying-- in your own backcountry bird with no obligations to anyone else-- is to make some real money and keep the wife and kids happy. Of course this is still theoretical for me.

Sounds like good advice. Farming in this area has been the same way, 3--4% return on total investment in the past 30 years but many families only stayed in it for the love of the life style and don't consider it a business. Then, for lack of treating it as a business they end up losing their lifestyle.
These people willing to fly for nearly no pay are the same as any cheap labor source, business will pay no more than it has to for the resource. The more competition for every job, the cheaper the salary. You have signed up for the bottom of the food chain, economically speaking.

I guess another way to approach the problem is to separate pursuing the dream from pursuing the means to the dream. Start with taking a ride to the airport and seeing which plane and type of flying interests a young man the most. Then go talk to the owner and see what he does for a living. Then set the educational goals accordingly on how to get there instead of where you would like to be. Its not always a straight line to the prize at the end.

I went through USU's program with no intent to end up at the airlines, but that is what happened. Luckily for me, it has worked out well. At the time, like Wee said, you could come with our PPL, but the rest had to be done by them. You have to remember that they are a business and want your $$ for flying their aircraft, using their instructors, etc. I also did the wildland firefighting thing, which kept my nose above water, but no where near kept me out of debt.

So, a few thoughts:

Definitely take people for a ride and introduce them.

I have a hard time encouraging people to pursue an airline career. I tell them that the rose colored glasses need to come off and then if they still want to do it, then fine. Just so long as they go in knowing what they are getting themselves into. University flight schools, by the way, are the biggest provider of "rose colored glasses", so don't buy into the hype the brochure sells.

For learning to fly, find a flying club and do all your ratings while getting a degree in something that you could possibly do as a career. If you fly for a living, hopefully you'll have a degree or experience in something that you can earn a living doing while you are furloughed. By the way, no one really cares if you went to through a 141 school or a university with a flight program. All they care is if you have the ratings and meet the minimum flight requirements.

Usually, an ATP is something that is come by later as you progress in charter or 121 ops. However, some jobs do require it to apply and some people will have to get it on their own despite already having amassed quite a bit of experience. So saying otherwise is incorrect.

And, to echo Zane, the advice I give people is to find something that they enjoy, or at least can tolerate, where they can make good $$ and do the flying thing as a hobby.

Oh, and if you do pursue an airline career, here is a vital piece of information: Marry someone that has a higher earning potential than you do for at least your first 7-10 years. That way, when you get furloughed (and you will at least once) you will still be able to pay your bills. This was our only saving grace when it happened to me. It is also how I was able to pay off my school debt 7 years early.

Grassstrip your right, there are a lot of people here that want to go on to the airlines and they thought I was crazy when I said that wasn't what I wanted to do. I love airplane and flying but I like sleeping in my bed at night. The airline lifestyle just isn't for me, I would like to work in an aviation related field, I enjoy working on planes, but I don't want to fly for an airline nor can I now with my medical situation.

NineThreeKilo wrote:I keep getting students who want to go commercial but ask me where can they get the funds from.

Things were a little different when I did it.

Anyone have any fresh info for getting loans for a Cessna Pilot Center that is part 61/141??

THANKS

93K

While I appreciate where things are going. It seems like much of this belongs in a different forum. The original post was asking for mpnew ways to be able to pay for flight training. I know if I could do it all over I would have started with a pro pilot degree. My school, debt may have been higher but if I had a job as a CFI I'd be making about what I'm making now, and loving what I was doing. Currently with a degree I make slight less then what my CFIs pull in a year, and don't really love my job. Plus I'd be building hours and experience, and getting paid to do it.

Back on the subject then about getting money (besides a wife that makes more than you), we have had a couple of people get loans via a credit union that could be used for flight schools. They were even able to use it for joining our flying club and learning to fly, which is a much less expensive option than going through an FBO. So that might be an option.

Like I said earlier, don't get hung up on the whole "pro pilot degree" thing. It isn't needed and, in my opinion, hurts you in some ways. Going through a flying program leaves you pretty one dimensional. For example, I know flying (my degree) and wild land fire fighting. Not much to fall back on when I got furloughed from my first carrier. Having some work experience in another field is a good thing. Again, the airlines (and I'd imagine most flying jobs unless it is very mission specific) don't care what your degree is in or where you went to school. They just want a qualified pilot (ratings) with good experience. In fact, my friend in college bailed on the flying program because of their required business minor (which was a joke) and switched to a Liberal Arts and Science degree. Did all his flight training in a Mooney he had a share in. He graduated a year earlier than his flight program counterparts and got hired by the airlines a year plus ahead of them. He's now here with me at my airline.

Now I don't know your situation, but you could go get your CFI and possibly instruct on the side...in addition to your day job assuming that you would have the free time to do so.