Backcountry Pilot • I'm new...

I'm new...

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Re: I'm new...

TxAgfisher wrote:I've been looking at Stinson's this morning - is there any room behind the rear seats? Also, from what I have read, should I stay away from the Franklin powerplant and look for a Lyc conversion? I see some that have the O-470 in it.

How is the short field performance?


A Stinson 108-2 or -3 has a baggage compartment behind the rear seat with an access door on the right side of the airplane. I believe it's limited to 100lbs. With the 165 Franklin they are a decent short field airplane unless you are heavy. With 220-230hp they are a great short field airplane. The 108-3 has a 2400lb gross weight as opposed to 2230 on the 108-1 or -2, the straight 108 has a 2150lb gross weight. A straight 108 or -1 came standard with the 150hp Franklin and the -2 and -3 has the 165 Franklin. The -2 and -3 have rudder trim. The -3 also has 50 gallon fuel tanks as opposed to 40 on the other 108s.
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Re: I'm new...

On the moGas issue, only some of the lycomings are approved. The 0-540 B4B5 is for sure. None of the fuel injected ones are as far as I know. Peterson aviations website has the listing for all of their moGas STCs.
Also, I'm pretty sure a Maule of any breed (TW/TK) will be higher insurance then most others.
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Re: I'm new...

[/quote]

A Stinson 108-2 or -3 has a baggage compartment behind the rear seat with an access door on the right side of the airplane. I believe it's limited to 100lbs. With the 165 Franklin they are a decent short field airplane unless you are heavy. With 220-230hp they are a great short field airplane. The 108-3 has a 2400lb gross weight as opposed to 2230 on the 108-1 or -2, the straight 108 has a 2150lb gross weight. A straight 108 or -1 came standard with the 150hp Franklin and the -2 and -3 has the 165 Franklin. The -2 and -3 have rudder trim. The -3 also has 50 gallon fuel tanks as opposed to 40 on the other 108s.[/quote]

That is excellent information! So it would appear that a 108-2 or 108-3 would fit the bill pretty good with the O-470. The 100lb max I would assume would be due to CG since it is towards the tail, but it would leave the back seat available for added storage.

I am with you all though - buying a cheaper plane I can actually use is better than spending it all on a payment, hangar and insurance. Right now, I just want to get in the air.

I would also imagine that something like a Stinson at $35k would be easier to sell than say a Maule at $80k simply because there are more people that can afford it.

I am a pretty young guy (28) but make pretty good money. I know a lot of other avenues can/will open as I get further into my career and make some more money.

Please keep the ideas coming!
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Re: I'm new...

I'm an Ag too, always cool to see another. In the Corps I'm guessing? I was in C-1 '11. Anyways I don't have much more to add, I was in a similar position when I started flying a few years ago. I wanted to get into crop dusting and started training with that intent. I flew in a Cub very early on and realized that's what I really wanted out of flying, and just needed to have a job that would support the hobby. I bought a Cub a couple weeks after that and it's been a blast ever since, plus I have a job (seed and chemical sales) that I love and allows me to take care of my family and fly as much as I want.

I'd just say get started and see what direction you're drawn towards. The Cub is my stol toy and gets abused as such, but I've been drawn in a couple different directions while looking to add a 2nd plane. Ultimately I think I'll just wait to buy a 4 seater I can keep on a grass strip in my back yard, but a Mooney or Comanche kept at the airport would be an excellent way to travel.
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Re: I'm new...

CenterHillAg wrote:I'm an Ag too, always cool to see another. In the Corps I'm guessing? I was in C-1 '11. Anyways I don't have much more to add, I was in a similar position when I started flying a few years ago. I wanted to get into crop dusting and started training with that intent. I flew in a Cub very early on and realized that's what I really wanted out of flying, and just needed to have a job that would support the hobby. I bought a Cub a couple weeks after that and it's been a blast ever since, plus I have a job (seed and chemical sales) that I love and allows me to take care of my family and fly as much as I want.

I'd just say get started and see what direction you're drawn towards. The Cub is my stol toy and gets abused as such, but I've been drawn in a couple different directions while looking to add a 2nd plane. Ultimately I think I'll just wait to buy a 4 seater I can keep on a grass strip in my back yard, but a Mooney or Comanche kept at the airport would be an excellent way to travel.


C 1/11...I was with B 1/11 from 2000-2003. When were you there? Sorry, don't want to hijack the threat.

JB
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Re: I'm new...

Sorry, I coulda' worded that better for the non Ag's reading. That was my unit and class year from when I was in the Corps of Cadets at A&M. I wasn't motivated enough to be a Marine, I enlisted as a 13F in the National Guard instead.
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Re: I'm new...

I'm a few months ahead of you, partially done my PPL. Similar ambitions and reasons, particularly hunting and fishing.

I've decided on a 182, as STOL and backcountry as possible. Makes sense for me but I was originally really drawn to a Helio.

Ping me if you ever want to commiserate on the vagaries of getting your PPL. The flying is ridiculously fun but the memorization stuff gets pretty tedious.

Lots of great, helpful people on this site. Welcome.
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Re: I'm new...

No Corps for me - I went the PLC route, graduated early '09. Your location says the Texas coast... where about?

Does anyone on here have a Stinson with some data on the short field performance?
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Re: I'm new...

Your first plane is (hardly) ever the perfect one.
As others have said, just get flying something, learn what your main mission will be, and then go hard for the perfect plane. By then you'll know just what it is.
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Re: I'm new...

My first plane was a 1957 182. It will do everything on your wish list except have a tailwheel. I sold it to a friend who had just started to take flying lessons. He finished his private pilot training in it and then his wife did all her training in it. Both had no trouble learning to fly in the 182.
I suggest buying a straight tail 182 for less than 50k and using the other 30k you have budgeted for fuel, insurance, maitenence, and instructor fees. If you don't have any major maitenance problems, you should have at least 15k left in your account when you finish your private checkride.
Owning your own plane when learning to fly makes scheduling flight time with your instructor easier because you are the only one using the plane and it gives you motivation to continue because you are heavily invested in it.
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Re: I'm new...

On the other hand, I've known several people who fizzled out on their flight training after soloing because they owned their own airplane. Their instructors didn't get on their case about following through, so they just flew all over hell and gone and came back every 3 months for another 90-day "OK to solo" signoff. Eventually they got to the point of having their wife climb aboard behind a hangar out near the end of the runway and away they'd go. One guy ended up ground-looping his airplane about 3 states away on a trip, even his 90 day solo endorsement was expired. A couple of the guys did end up doing the written test & check ride, but they had to be pushed.

When you rent an airplane, at least at my airport, you're kind of under the scrutiny of the FBO, and if needed he and the instructor(s) get on your case & push you toward completing the license. I didn't need that push, but apparently some folks do.
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Re: I'm new...

You’ve got to crawl before you can walk. Even if you have that thousand-pound useful, sub 800 foot airplane, it’s going to be many, many, many…many hours before you can utilize it for that.

I’ve got a big engine Cessna 170 with a STOL kit which is just about perfect for the backcountry flying my wife and I do, and I’m really glad it wasn’t my first airplane.

There are lots of right ways do do things and I guess everyone’s partial to the way they did it, but a new pilot is going to be doing a WHOLE lot of front-country flying before they start doing any backcountry flying.

I’ve never wanted to fly anywhere but in the backcountry. I live at high density altitude and have to cross the Sierra Nevada Mountains to get anywhere worth going, so naturally my first airplane was a… Cessna 140? This was not my first choice for a two-person backcountry airplane, but finances and circumstances conspired to make it the best choice I had at the time. I didn’t know it then, but starting off in an underpowered, short-legged airplane was the absolute BEST thing I could have ever done.

Underpowered airplanes teach you what the air is doing. You can’t just pull back on the yoke or add more throttle… hell, a lot of the time you can’t even turn on course until you figure out where the air is rising so you can gain some altitude. You have to use the air, and to use it you have to understand it. Getting that education in the relatively open spaces of the front-country is a very good idea. Taking off and discovering that you can only climb 100 feet without orographic lift is best done with some maneuvering space.

There are lots of pilots, including high-time pilots, who never really figured out how air moves over and around the land just like water in a river moving over and around boulders. They never had to, until they went into the backcountry where the effect is greater, the margins are tighter, and the stakes are higher. It doesn’t work out too well for some of them. Successful piloting is about knowledge, decision making, experience, and skill, not about hardware. There’s no amount of aircraft performance that will make it possible for an underprepared pilot to successfully fly the backcountry, and if a pilot doesn’t have a keen understanding of how air moves, they are underprepared.

Flying across Sierra’s and then across the Great Basin in a 182 requires little more than making sure the tanks are full and picking an altitude. The same flight in a C140 with 22 gallons of fuel, negligible climb performance, and a zero-wind cruise speed around 100mph requires real planning and commitment. It’s a hell of a lot more fun, too.

The endless pattern work, private pilot flight maneuvers, and the ham-fistedness of new pilots is flat out hard on an engine. Smaller engines generate a lot less heat and tolerate the abuse of a new pilot and the training environment better than larger engines. They also typically have cheaper parts.

Small airplanes burn less fuel, hold less oil, and have lower insurance rates and thus cost much less per hour than larger planes. When you start out you’re trying to build hours of experience, not put miles behind you. Why drone around the pattern burning 10gph when you can do it at 4gph? If and when you do step up to a larger plane you’re doing more cross country flying than pattern work and your insurance premiums are lower because you have some hours under your belt.

Buy the right plane and you won’t lose money. We paid $30K for an expertly restored 1948 Cessna 140 in premium condition and sporting a Lycoming engine, and we kept it in premium condition. I learned to fly a tail wheel in it, and my wife earned her private pilot license in it. After we put 630 tac-hours and four sets of tires on her (lots and lots of touch n goes in those hours) we sold it, for $30K. During our ownership we also went through 25 oil filters, 173 quarts of oil, 12 air filters, 8 spark plugs, 4 brake pads, one cylinder overhaul, one starter overhaul, one generator overhaul and approximately 3,300 gallons of fuel. Add all that up and it’s not cheap, but it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than it would have been with a thousand-pound-useful-and-sub-800-foot airplane.

And while we were limited to mostly front-country airstrips, we had more fun in that plane than any two people deserve. We made dozens of trips from our base in California to Idaho, Wyoming, Oregon, Nevada, Utah, and Arizona. There’s a lot of decision making flying cross country in a little plane like that, and it all adds up. There were also some decisions we didn’t have to make: I was never tempted to try out strips that were above my head because “well, I sure as hell have enough airplane”. That’s a trap a lot of people fall into. If there’s anything more humiliating than cracking up an airplane, it’s cracking up a STOL airplane on a non-STOL strip. Huskies at Johnson Creek come to mind…

And finally, little airplanes are just flat out fun! I’ve got a friend with more money than some small countries. He’s got multiple hangars full of airplanes, including several of the most desirable backcountry STOL planes ever built. But if you ask him what’s the last plane he’d ever part with he replies without hesitation “my Cessna 120”. It’s the first airplane he ever owned and the last one he’ll ever part with.

Again, there’s a lot of right ways to do things, but starting off in a small, anemic airplane was the single best thing I ever did for my flying education.
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Re: I'm new...

Well said, and some good points made.

Haven't seen you do any posting in a long time, Hammer-- good to have you back.
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Re: I'm new...

I say get an LSA (go light sport pilot first) first and learn to fly for real before you start thinking of a 4-place 1000lb 800ft approach w/ passengers. You're going to need a long wing maul, a 180, or a 182 to do that work - so get in line behind the rest of us.

if budget is an issue you shouldn't start out looking for a unicorn of an airplane.

And going into debt for toys is a recipe for beign poor the rest of your life. figure out what you can afford to pay outright and start there. Lots of seat time needed before you start risking other peoples lives or hauling big loads into hard to reach places.

I fly a J3 - teaches you good skills you will use in heavier planes. Much cheaper to own maintain and fly. Light sport pilot cert you can get in half the time/cost as full blown private, which you can always add on later. You might decide your primary mission isn't really involving 4 people and gear most of the time. And when you do - you can always rent a cheap 182 and do almost anything a taildragger can do heavily loaded.
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Re: I'm new...

Bravo Hammer,

It's about the pilot, not the airplane. Learning to fly level or down hill until we find natural energy makes us much better pilots. Yes, he will use these techniques when he gets a powerful airplane. Crop dusters know that when we get into a bigger airplane, they give us a bigger load. A fully loaded 182 on a hot day flies like a pig for those who have never flow a fully loaded 120 or 140 on a hot day. For those who have flown the little airplanes, the loaded 182 flies right well.

Hotrod 180,

To each their own. I am one of those outlaw instructors who signed off student pilot farmers multiple times in their Cubs. Some of the best pilots I have ever signed off for anything. There was no light sport back then. It doesn't take paper, mods, or big engines. It takes pilots like Hammer is talking about. I'm not talking about the airlines. That is a different game all together. That game takes different techniques. Say those you learn at the airport.

Good comments guys,

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Re: I'm new...

I keep my plane in Bay City, live just up the road in Wharton.
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Re: I'm new...

You guys are all awesome - excellent advice on here. I am really leaning towards a 108 at this point, especially a -3 with the O-470 conversion. It gets me the time in a tail wheel and is pretty close to what I "think" I want. Or, it could change what I want to do altogether.

I read the e-book contact flying sent me and it was an excellent read. Some of it over my head at this point with Vx this and Vy that but it will be an invaluable resource. However, now one of my biggest concerns is the instructor.

I talked to a couple of them and I know one is building a Bearhawk, so hopefully his training will align with what I hope to learn.
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Re: I'm new...

I would like to bring the discussion back to how do you afford it. Make sure you consider all the costs of this addiction. It would be a shame if you got in over your head to begin with and you decided then that you just cant afford to fly. I have been flying for 6 years with about 1000 hrs and I fly a 170A which I purchased for 30K. In that time I have spent about 30K on fuel/oil burning mostly autofuel. I have spent about 40K on maintenance. If you want to land in 800 feet and land where airports dont exist be prepared to bend some metal. Hangar and insurance accounts for another 14K in that time period. I am a "rich doctor" and these costs get my attention. If your going to spend this kind of dough you better have an understanding wife. Be careful reading this website as many of the comments are written by pilots with a gazillion hours and a lifetime of flying full time. I can tell you even they would be thinking long and hard about 800 feet and 4 people in the plane. Take baby steps learning to fly and owning a plane it will serve you well. This is all coming from a guy who bought a plane and then learned to fly. It turned out to be way more commitment in time, money and effort than I ever imagined but worth every bit of it.
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Re: I'm new...

I have a lot less knowledge here than almost all of these fellas, so take there advice over mine. Im here to learn like you!

Though my 2 bob of advice would be dont burn up your whole bank balance on the nicest aircraft you can buy, buy one you can afford to repair if you bend it! particuarly in your early days if you want to bush fly. Also one you can afford to operate. Buying an aircraft is the cheap part, owning one is what stings!
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