I want to start working on the instrument rating and presently fly a 8GCBC Scout. Its equipped for instrument flight (Garmin 430, gyros, heated pitot, etc.) but I am not sure about the practical side of giving or receiving instrument training in a tandem aircraft. Anyone had an experience with this? I may have to find a more conventional aircraft in which to train.

Thanks,

Tom

tombranton wrote:I want to start working on the instrument rating and presently fly a 8GCBC Scout. Its equipped for instrument flight (Garmin 430, gyros, heated pitot, etc.) but I am not sure about the practical side of giving or receiving instrument training in a tandem aircraft. Anyone had an experience with this? I may have to find a more conventional aircraft in which to train.

I have not done instrument training in tandem. However, I am current and practice every 4-6 weeks with a CFII, still trying to get back to where I was 15 years ago before an extended period of inactivity. In the last 6 months I've come up from "not dangerous" to "acceptable minus".

I believe the CFII must be able to easily see all the instruments at the same time. Once your IFR skills come up to "not dangerous", his job is to catch trends, tell you how to do it better, see what you missed, be on you about precision, etc. If he can do all of that from the back, then it is fine. If not, I would do at least some of it in a 2-wide airplane -- but make sure that plane has a Garmin 430 like yours.

However, assuming you will be flying the Scout IFR, you should definitely do substantial amounts of the work in it as well. Nothing substitutes for knowing the aircraft so well you don't have to think about which button to push and really knowing the airspeeds and power settings for every situation.

I did my instrument training in a Mooney 201. ONe of the things it has that my Husky doesn't, is a second radio. It's doable to fly IFR with only one radio, but it sure isn't convenient.

Tom, I'd say the main problem is that it could be difficult for the CFII in the backseat to follow exactly what's happening on the instruments. This could make it hard to evaluate your performance and make it a little scary for him/her in actual IFR conditions. As a CFII I would welcome the challenge! Good Luck, Roger.

Just some follow-up information. I do have a second radio in the Scout. An idea. Would it help if the CFII in the back had a Garmin 496. I know you can get an instrument panel representation on it. Just not sure how quickly it would refresh to be useful.

It may be I am making a difficult rating even more so by considering doing it in the Scout. I know the Scout is not a great instrument platform no matter how much instrumentation it has. It does not have an auto pilot.

We get a lot of morning haze here on the coast and I would not envision doing hard IFR in the Scout.

Thanks to everyone who replied.

Tom

tombranton wrote:It may be I am making a difficult rating even more so by considering doing it in the Scout. I know the Scout is not a great instrument platform no matter how much instrumentation it has. It does not have an auto pilot.
Tom

I wouldn't consider the instrument rating difficult. For me it was easier than the Private. I did my instrument training in a C172 and we flew some actual IMC and I would recommend that too. So you'd want to make sure your CFII is comfortable flying in IMC from the backseat if you decided to do so. I completely enjoyed my instrument training and think you probably will too if you're technically savvy with radios and VOR's and the Garmin.

I took all of my IFR training in my Husky including my check ride.

My instructor was very comfortable flying from the backseat and could view the instruments as needed. It was a great training platform and I'd do it again.

Remember the guy that would always say "Just go buy a Maule" Havn't heard from him lately. I say just go to Shebles and do the 10 day course. that is what I did and you get to whare thier planes out. http://www.shebleaviation.com/

Fly your plane it Kingman then when you finish the school, spend an hour with one of the instructors.

Not important in my view to take instruction in your plane. Cheaper at Sheble. Use the extra money you save for post certificate instruction in your plane.

Tim

qmdv wrote:I say just go to Shebles and do the 10 day course. that is what I did and you get to whare thier planes out. http://www.shebleaviation.com/ Tim

Great advice! I got my CFII there years ago in one day. My 18 year old nephew just spent 3 weeks there and went zero to private pilot. The Schebles are great people too.

There are literally thousands, if not more military pilots trained in a tandem aircraft. Taking the training in the aircraft you intend to fly IFR in is whats important, in my opinion

a64pilot wrote:There are literally thousands, if not more military pilots trained in a tandem aircraft. Taking the training in the aircraft you intend to fly IFR in is whats important, in my opinion

I agree, time in your main airplane is very important. There is a big difference between being legally current and being really good.

Auto pilots do not make aircraft a good IFR platform. They are a nice accessory that can help but millions of hours have been flown without an autopilot.
Seth

a64pilot wrote:There are literally thousands, if not more military pilots trained in a tandem aircraft. Taking the training in the aircraft you intend to fly IFR in is whats important, in my opinion

Tandem is great when you have full dual instrumentation and controls. In the back seat of my plane you can't see instruments and you can't control prop, mags, mixture etc. I'd say get the rating and then transition to your plane with a really good CFII in the back seat initially.

Plus, why waste those precious engine hours of your Scout flying dorky instrument training exercises? Rent a flight school 172 for that.

1SeventyZ wrote:Plus, why waste those precious engine hours of your Scout flying dorky instrument training exercises? Rent a flight school 172 for that.

Well, those dorky hours in your own airplane will teach you what attitudes and power settings you need for your specific airplane. That gets the attitude instrument flying down to a don't think about it reflex, and you can use the brain power for spatial awareness and the IFR stuff you gotta do.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:[
Well, those dorky hours in your own airplane will teach you what attitudes and power settings you need for your specific airplane.

You have a good point, but I suppose if I was the owner of a tandem aircraft, I would do the training and checkride in a 172 or 152, and then do something like an IPC in the tandem aircraft afterward with a CFII. I think someone already suggested this above. I like to be able to look over at my instructor, or have him point to stuff on approach plates while seated next to me. It just seems an easier arrangement to instrument work.

I'd think that the attitude and power setting stuff specific to a Scout could be gleaned during a few hours of transition under the hood after the rating has been secured.

Of course we all know what my opinion is worth... I haven't finished my instrument rating yet.

1SeventyZ wrote:Of course we all know what my opinion is worth... I haven't finished my instrument rating yet.

Walk on the ricepaper Grasshopper.....

Gump

Well, those dorky hours in your own airplane will teach you what attitudes and power settings you need for your specific airplane. That gets the attitude instrument flying down to a don't think about it reflex, and you can use the brain power for spatial awareness and the IFR stuff you gotta do.

Exactly. If you plan to use YOUR plane for mid-level to serious IFR work, then all the training you can do in it will be a huge benefit. If on the other hand you are getting your ticket to be able to decend thru a light overcast, then perhaps the relevant training in your own aircraft is not important.

If you have a competent and seasoned instructor he or she will have no problem giving you dual from the backseat. My instructor could fly my plane better, in hard IFR, from the back seat than I could have from the front. I had no misgivings about entering the soup with him in the back seat, and more importantly, neither did my instructor or FAA examiner.

Tom:

First post. I have about 75 hours in Scouts (one had an HSI), and just bought a 2001 that I plan to fly IFR. I have had my instrument rating for about three years so you need a safety pilot send me a PM.

I agree with the suggestion to get about the first ten-fifteen hours in a skyhawk and then transition to the Scout.

Chris

Let me begin by saying that I have never given IFR flight instruction in a tandem-seat airplane. I would have no problem providing IFR training in a properly-equipped, tandem-seat airplane, as long as we were in VFR conditions.
I like taking IFR students into actual conditions later in their training, and my comfort level doing that from the back seat would be inversely proportional to the size of the student in the front seat. No problem if the student is small enough so I can get a good look at the full panel, but, some of my clients are not exactly petite.
In actual conditons we're on a IFR flight plan, I'm PIC (assuming the student is not yet rated), and if my student busts an altitude assignment, or DA/MDA, or causes a deal, its my bust, and my ticket, not theirs.
IMHO, I would recommend a student get their IFR ticket in the plane they are going to fly, most often, if at all possible. IFR procedures are common across all airframes, but power settings and avionics are not. For example, the IFR-equipped Huskys I've flown in the past few years all have Garmin 430's and Aviat is working on a STC to install G600's. If the local flight school's Skyhawk is equipped with Carter-era steam gauges and ARC radios, why waste the time & money? I think I could produce a much safer IFR Husky pilot in 38 hours in a Husky and 2 hours of actual in a Skyhawk v. 38 hours in a Skyhawk and 2 hours in a Husky.