When I bought my plane last fall it came with a 88" seaplane prop for the amphibs and a 82" McCauley 2A34C203-C. I switched to an MT when I installed the PPonk and sold the 88" shortly thereafter.

The 82" is on the block now. It was overhauled by Johnson Propeller in Feb 2016 and they issued a new log book.

I have an interested buyer from New Zealand. I'm in Canada. Johnson is in the USA. The buyer has asked for logs since new so I called Johnson to ask why they issued a new log instead of updating the old one. I spoke to Mike at Johnson and he said they regularly issue new logs for rebuilt props, especially if they start with a used core, and he didn't really care what Canada or NZ expected to see. He says he is regulated by the FAA and that is the only set of regs he cares about.

Can any of you US guys shine any light on this? Is it normal to issue a new log after overhaul in the USA? Would you be comfortable buying a prop with a new log?

The prop has only 3 hours on it and my mechanic says it is in excellent condition.

Any insight appreciated.

Did they give you back the old log Al?

No, he made it seem like the new log made the old information redundant. That doesn't make sense to me, so I'm trying to understand if this is standard practise in the US.

That's ridiculous those logs are not his to decide. I would ask for them or have issue elevated.

I agree with 8GCBC. If they used new blades, oh'ed the hub and you bought it off them I could see the old logs maybe being redundant but your prop your logs.

To be clear, it wasn't my prop to start with so I cannot demand my old logs back. The previous owner of my airplane bought the prop from Johnson Propeller and it came with a new log book and no prior information. I was swimming in the complexity of buying my first plane and didn't think to check on the logs of the second prop.

Besides, based on the attitude of the guy I spoke to on the phone I really doubt escalating the issue would help. He is either the owner or operates with the blessing of the owner. Asking around a bit now, they do not have a reputation for excellent customer service.

This actually sounds kinda familiar. I can't say one way or another with enough confidence to really give you a definitive answer, but I think I went through this when I overhauled my prop years ago (and I think it was Johnson, too, FWIW). If I remember correctly, if the overhaul is to certain standards, it effectively becomes a new prop and they eliminate the old logs.

Don't quote me or flame me, just putting it out there that its possible something else is going on.

I worked at a prop shop as a repairman and chief inspector for many years. I also started my own propeller repair station. What Johnson did is very very common and usually very necessary.

For years, prop information was included with the engine and did not have a separate log. Mostly non existent. We would have to generate a new one, doing the customer a huge favor. We went through log books by the hundreds. Even if there was a log book, usually it was very incomplete. What would happen was the removal of the propeller was not logged and so time wise there wasn't anything accurate. Hub and blade serial numbers are what's important. The prop shop will have a record filed with the work order on current blade specs, etc. The important things.

Canadian logs were another story. Huge and super sized with all kinds of stuff. I can't ever remember passing on a Canadian log to a US buyer. Nobody wants to deal with it.

Please don't make an issue for the prop shop. The information they gave you is how it's done, in actuality they are helping a huge number of aircraft owners who would otherwise have nothing. Can you imagine all the good blades and hubs scrapped over the years because the prop shop was supplied zero documentation?

It's not as simple as it sounds, and I guarantee you not an issue of the prop shop trying to hurt you.

We even had commercial operators that had logs and would not give them to you. We still did their work, and furnished new logs. With the exception of a very few blades and hubs, they are not time lifed anyway.

Richard

re: Original post ...with the further explanation (Thank you)...

Generally, not much you can do in retrospect about something you never owned. A deal is a deal. The disposition of aircraft logs is possibly legal if parties involved are in agreement and the FARs do have guidance on the subject.

When the Navy sells old aircraft in Hawaii the logs and every other piece of paper is shredded. Even placards are removed.

richpiney wrote:I worked at a prop shop as a repairman and chief inspector for many years. I also started my own propeller repair station. What Johnson did is very very common and usually very necessary.

For years, prop information was included with the engine and did not have a separate log. Mostly non existent. We would have to generate a new one, doing the customer a huge favor. We went through log books by the hundreds. Even if there was a log book, usually it was very incomplete. What would happen was the removal of the propeller was not logged and so time wise there wasn't anything accurate. Hub and blade serial numbers are what's important. The prop shop will have a record filed with the work order on current blade specs, etc. The important things.

Canadian logs were another story. Huge and super sized with all kinds of stuff. I can't ever remember passing on a Canadian log to a US buyer. Nobody wants to deal with it.

Please don't make an issue for the prop shop. The information they gave you is how it's done, in actuality they are helping a huge number of aircraft owners who would otherwise have nothing. Can you imagine all the good blades and hubs scrapped over the years because the prop shop was supplied zero documentation?

It's not as simple as it sounds, and I guarantee you not an issue of the prop shop trying to hurt you.

We even had commercial operators that had logs and would not give them to you. We still did their work, and furnished new logs. With the exception of a very few blades and hubs, they are not time lifed anyway.

Richard

Thanks Richard, that is exactly the type of answer I was looking for, from someone with understanding of the business.

FWIW, my opinion of the prop shop's customer service was much more about the demeanor of the guy on the phone than the fact that they weren't giving me the old logs. If he had given me the explanation you just did I would have been very grateful.

Thanks again, very helpful comment.
Allan

Makes more sense, going by the super post by richpiney its a non-issue.

From what I've seen and been told by experienced IAs, USA logbooks and record-keeping practices are considered relatively basic by several other former Commonwealth country's aviation regulating bodies including Australia's CASA, NZ's CAA, the UK CAA, probably Canada TCCA. Put simply, those regulators have vastly more onerous requirements.

Here in NZ, we definitely cannot use such a basic logbook system, it would not be accepted by the authorities. I asked that question when I started registering our plane. The big Canadian logs which Richard mentioned are probably more like what we use in NZ.

Don't you American boys forget how good / easy aviation is in your country eh? You do it right.

So while the prop shop is trying to do you a favor by condensing the logs, be aware the American logs they have provided will probably not meet the NZ regulator's requirements. New logs will have to be created when it reaches NZ shores.

I've sent all my props and govs to Johnson for the last 16 years, they are good guys. It's not uncommon for them to get props in for overhaul with out the customer supplying the logs, they normally will give you a new book with a yellow tag in it sayin 0 since overhaul with any other information (blade and hub sn's).

Like mentioned before, props have not always had their own log books, they were tracked in the engine log. It's not that hard for someone to determine time in service or time since new. I'm pretty sure the prop shop does not want to keep yours or anyone else's old logs, there would literally be a mountain of them in the hangar if that was the case. Lol

I had AC Prop in Seattle overhaul my C201 last year, got back a fresh new logbook with it.
But when I bought it as a run-out core, it didn't come with an old logbook.

Hi, for what its worth I bought a used C204 prop from the US and had it shipped to NZ. It had a logbook and 8130-3 from last overhaul.
NZ engineer (A&PA) was happy with that.
Over here we have a 5 year calendar inspection on props, basically a strip and re-seal, so the prospective NZ purchaser is probably interested in when it was last overhauled.
Cheers
Hamish

The terms "rebuilt" and "overhauled" aren't interchangeable. See FAR 43.2. If I recall correctly;

"Overhauled" means an item has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired, and reassembled and meets in-service standards in accordance with the holder of the TC, STC, PMA, etc..
- Owner gets the original logbook back.

"Rebuilt" means an item has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired, and reassembled and meets new part tolerances and limits.
- Owner gets a new logbook.

Same rule for props as it is for engines.

RT

ZK Kiwi wrote:Over here we have a 5 year calendar inspection on props

I think you'll find that varies with each prop, depending on manufacturer recommendations? Our Macaulay had a six year window, whereas most older Hartzells have a 4 year window.