Backcountry Pilot

[TomW offline]

After years of lusting over it, I'm finally going to JC (work and weather willing) Aug. 8-10. I know every possible question I can come up with could be answered on this site, so I'll probably be asking many over the next week. Just for starters, here's a few;

I'm picking up my party from Boise in the middle of the day, so were planning an evening arrival. What's the earliest time you can get into JC in the evenings?

As far as mornings go I recall someone on this site stating to have your morning flying in the backcountry wrapped up by noon. I think I'll be happy sitting under the wing with drink in hand by 10:30am watching (hoping) for arrivals to visit with.

Is fire wood available at JC? And if so do they even allow campfires this time of year?

Does anyone know of any type/club fly-ins scheduled that weekend? I've been watching the pilotcam this last month and it's seems to be depressingly vacant. I've heard stories in the past about fighting for a parking spot. Might just be the (gas price) times were in.

Is anyone from BCP planning to be around then?

Thats all I got for now. Thanks in advance for your input.

Tom

[mauleace offline]

Density altitude, wind, thermals are the main reason to limit flying in the canyons. Conditions are always the best in the AM. Personally, I am on the ground heavy, when I first arrive by 10:00 AM.

In the evening, the conditions are good by about 7:00 PM.

Firewood is usually available for free. I have been there when they have run out. Fires should be allowed in the campground.

I checked with Gene and Cody about 2 weeks ago and at that time, there were not organized flyins scheduled in August. But 3U2 is very popular in the summer.

[Squawk1200 offline]

I asked this question just a few weeks ago and got some great responses. One great read to start with was in the pirep section of articles that the site administrator sent me.

phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1393

Good Luck,

Bill

[Green Hornet offline]

There is a school in McCall. They will answer questions and supply maps free.
You could also hire them for a couple of hours to take you in to JC via the southernly route ( best for early morning sun in eyes). All things being relative as far as experience you really want to be knowledgeable and plan this landing in detail.
http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/browser_help.html
Fly Safe

[airprakken offline]

I also recommend flying over there first with an experienced instructor from McCall. I just did 4 days of that two weeks ago with http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/ I can't imagine having gone into those strips without this. There are more accidents at JC than just about anywhere because it is not as easy as the pictures make it look.

[skymaule offline]

The instructor idea is the best thing you could do.

[Scolopax offline]

Not that I am an expert, but these are a few things that I do know about this flight environment... Always leave enough room in canyons for a 180 degree turn... Never count on out-climbing terrain. Maintain down-hill exposure at all times (for it buys you time in the event of an engine-out).Don't worry about flying standard traffic patterns in steep narrow canyons, just talk on the CTAF and let everyone know position, altitude, intentions, etc... As always, Density Altitude is a factor.

One of my best pieces of advice for all landings in the Idaho Back Country is to set it up right and land. That is, don't consider going around an option. If you feel like you have too much energy, and you can't bleed it off in time to get down and stopped with plenty of margin, recognize this ASAP and take action before you are really low and need to rely on the engine to pull you up and out.

It seems that many of the accidents that I've heard about over there result from carrying too much speed, either not getting stopped by the end of the strip or attempting a go-around in to terrain.

[shortfielder offline]

TomW

IMHO fly in there the first time with someone that isfamil,iar with it, or a backcoutry instructor, and get comfortable with it. Instruction would reallybe the best. Really helps when you have to make adjustments.

If you don't do this, you really should do this by yourself the first time, and not involve someone else in an adventure that you aren't comfortable wth.

I disagree with the no go round approach. Particularly if you haven't built up much confidence yet for this type of flying, you shouldn't put yourself in a situation that doesn't have any options, or only 1. Depending on your plane, there aren't really too many strips that you can't do a go aroud on, but the key here is to recognize it early and keep going around until you get an aproach that you are comfortable with.

Fo my money, stabilized approch and speed control are key. Until you get this mastered, stay out of the tight, short strips.

FWIW Have fun and be SAFE Gary

[TomD offline]

A good Mountain flying instructor out of McCall is Robert Patrick 208-634-4824.

Some time in the mountains with an instructor is always a good idea.

Advice I should take myself each year.

[airprakken offline]

TomW
I disagree with the no go round approach. Particularly if you haven't built up much confidence yet for this type of flying, you shouldn't put yourself in a situation that doesn't have any options, or only 1. Depending on your plane, there aren't really too many strips that you can't do a go aroud on, but the key here is to recognize it early and keep going around until you get an aproach that you are comfortable with.

Fo my money, stabilized approch and speed control are key. Until you get this mastered, stay out of the tight, short strips.

Yes. The school teaches to pick a specific abort point before entering the approach -- that's the last point at which you could safely go around. Sometimes that's an altitude, sometimes it's a piece of geography. Sometimes it is near the flare and sometimes more than a mile away. If you don't have the proper altitude, speed and attitude nailed and stable there, go around. Once you are beyond that point, never go around. It's much safer to run off the end at 20 than go into the tree tops at 60+.

Yes. A steep, stabilized approach at a precise speed selected to minimize float is essential.

I did two go-arounds at JC the first time (and only time) I was in there two weeks ago. It was supposedly much easier than the ones I had just landed at the first try with much less trouble (like Mahoney Creek and Thomas Creek). But it was 11:30 at JC, there was some rising air off the approach end and I didn't have my altitude nailed early in downwind. Third time worked fine.

They also teach that you should always do a pattern. It might look nothing like a normal one due to terrain but there should be a discernible downwind and base, giving yourself the best chance to run a steep, stable approach. They believe the long straight-ins over Yellow Pine to JC are much more dangerous than flying a left pattern on the East side and, of course, not very safe for other traffic.

I feel I could land anywhere I did 2 weeks ago by myself now except Wilson Bar -- I need a couple more with somebody before I'm ready for that one. But that is now and the rest of this summer. If I don't do any more this year (and maybe even if I do some more), by next summer I will need at least a couple more hours of instruction / instructed practice before going anywhere there.

Sorry to be long-winded.

[LowAndSlow offline]

They also teach that you should always do a pattern. It might look nothing like a normal one due to terrain but there should be a discernible downwind and base, giving yourself the best chance to run a steep, stable approach. They believe the long straight-ins over Yellow Pine to JC are much more dangerous than flying a left pattern on the East side and, of course, not very safe for other traffic.

I think that's important. And fly a pattern that keeps the runway in sight if at all possible. There is no reason to fly the Yellow Pine One Arrival, it's scary and I hate hearing guys do it. Often, once they're in the canyon, their radios don't even make the corner, and you get guys taking off into the arriving traffic. If that's the only way you can get into Johnson Creek, then you really should find someone to give you a little dual.

John

[z3skybolt offline]

I agree...

....with Low and Slow. I went into JC last month for the first time, in my Maule, on my own, without any dual. I thought the Yellow Pine One was the way it was supposed to be done.

We came around the corner....whoops, there was the strip, sooner than I expected. A bit high and fast, I sideslipped all the way to touchdown. Landed in the first 500 ft., on speed. No big deal...used 1/3 of the runway.... but not the slow, stabilized approach that I had planned.

Set up camp and here comes this 182 downwind on the east side. Later a Beaver, with an instructor from McCall made the downwind approach also. They both made it look easy. That is the way I will do it in the future.

Also...the 182 and Beaver both took off toward Yellow Pine, climbed in the canyon and made a left downwind departure to the south, over the ridgeline. There is lots more room there to manuever than I had imagined.

Enjoy! Lord willing....I'll be back.

Bob

p.s. By the way....Moose Creek was a piece of cake. Why is it listed as "hazardous" on the sectional? Well I guess that they are all hazardous in reality.

[iceman offline]

shoot for the numbers and try to land in the first 100-200 feet. If you can't and you float or are too hot just remember you can still get stopped even if you touch down at the half way point. The grass really slows you down . Enjoy.... Oh and remember it stays light up there till after 9 pm...

[58Skylane offline]

Like others have said here. Please get an instructor! I was talking to a gentleman at the Arlington Airshow a couple weeks ago, and he was telling me how much he wanted to come out to Idaho and fly into some of the airstrip in the backcountry for the first time. I asked him if he planned on getting any instruction, and his reply was that he has seen plenty of video's and books of the airstrips he wanted to go into. It didn't sound like to me he had any plans on getting instruction. So I had mentioned to him that it would be very important to do so. Well I hope he takes my advice.

[iceman offline]

I agree...

....

Bob

p.s. By the way....Moose Creek was a piece of cake. Why is it listed as "hazardous" on the sectional? Well I guess that they are all hazardous in reality.

Moose is rather easy and long as you can see in my avatar pix. It's considered hazardous cause it's in a canyon. Taking off on the shorter runway over the selway is considered hazardous with all the cranking and banking you have to do after takeoff over the selway. You are in a canyon banking with every turn of the river while climbing at full power..Not your average departure...Landing on the long runway in the picture is rather easy with a long 4 mile approach and a wide runway.

[ShamuPilot offline]

Anyone know if they got the drinking water situation fixed at JC?

[Desert185 offline]

Go to YouTube and search for Johnson Creek. Watch the videos landing there. If you make a downwind landing south (recommended), make a left downwind and turn base at the second ranch (clearing in the trees) slow and with flaps. You're going to be close the terrain on downwind, but that's how it should be done.

If you do a go around, do it from at least 100-200 feet on final, as the terrain does a subtle climb south of JC. Better yet, don't do a go around from low altitude.

[TomW offline]

Thanks to all for the help and input to my questions. All set to blast off tomorrow morning after work. Everything looks good with the exception of isolated thunder storms in the Boise, McCall area. Might be spending the night somewhere besides JC the first night. I'll try my hand on uploading pics when I return. Hope to see someone there.
Tom

[Grassstrippilot offline]

Hey, does anyone know if there are any fire restrictions on the Payette yet? More specifically, at JC. If any of you guys that went there this weekend could give me a report, I'd appreciate it. We are launching in the morning. How was the wood stack at JC? Still plenty? Thanks.

GSP

[Bonanza Man offline]

No restrictions.


http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/payette/conditions/index.shtml