With all of the negative press on backcountry flying, over crowding, noise, etc., maybe we should not post (unless it comes from the person involved themselves) negative information. It only ends up spreading into the wrong hands and creates WAY to much negative.

Just a thought...

AKT

An excellent thought.
I completely agree. One thing I have learned from 30 plus years of dealing with eco-freaks is that they use forums like this to gather information to use against us. A thread to remind us about traffic patterns or restricted areas is fine and shows good stewardship. A thread to whine about over-use or bad airmanship is just ammo for the opposition. It invariably promotes infighting and weakens the common bond we all share... love of the sport. Accent the positive and leave the mudslinging to P.M.s and the hot air section.

All well and good, however IMHO it leads to a slippery slope. If you have a forum whose primary stated purpose is to discuss and debate and share people's thoughts on this very subject...

One option is to make the forum more private, member only, nobody with orange underwear allowed, etc. And dedicated infiltrators might possibly still find a way in.

Then again, the idea of exposing ourselves or our flying to any additional risk, is also a slippery slope we don't want to be on.

That's a tough one, no quick solution.

I would say use PM, Email, and texting. Lets treat our friends the way we would want to be treated when our turn in the bucket comes. To our friends who bend them, please post what you can when you can because we are oh so curious.

Cheers

Or, I make a special locked-down forum, and allow in those users who provide to me their pilot certificate number, and a credit card number which I will authorize for a substantial amount. You won't be charged, but I'll know who you are with some certainty and be the gatekeeper.

Works for me. I hate when things go wrong and planes get bent, but in 15,000 hours of flying I learned most from the mistakes that other people experienced.

Zane wrote:Or, I make a special locked-down forum, and allow in those users who provide to me their pilot certificate number, and a credit card number which I will authorize for a substantial amount. You won't be charged, but I'll know who you are with some certainty and be the gatekeeper.

Some of those FAA types have pilot certs and credit cards And how do you tell who is a friendly or not. I think a lot of this just is a bit on the paranoia side. And yes a lot should be PM's or emails.

bcdpilot wrote:Works for me. I hate when things go wrong and planes get bent, but in 15,000 hours of flying I learned most from the mistakes that other people experienced.

Again I agree. The accident section is full of good info. As long as it is somewhat limited to facts and observations. The problem is that too many people lend subjective value judgements to situations they know little or nothing about. "what kind of pilot would do (fill in the blank)?' "Why would someone do such a thing?" etc... Lord knows I have let my ego override my skill set before. Most of us have. Flying is a risky undertaking by nature. Pointing out specific mis-ques is not always productive and often revealing to the wrong audience.

Just glad I don't have orange underwear. Hope brown streaks don't count.

There is a striking similarity between this picture and animal activists in the livestock and hunting industries here. Livestock producers tried screening the help but they got in anyway and made videos misrepresenting the care received on farms, and they got press. Each time, the truth finally gets sorted out but the corrections don't get the same coverage.
My point is that lock downs and gate keepers will defeat the attraction people have for open forums in my opinion. The best defense to this is to build on the strengths of the freedom of the forum. Producers here have launched their own public awareness initiatives and that has proven to innoculate the public against these people. Some farms have even opened the doors for everyone and showed kids the farm, whole schools even. City folks can take getaways on some. I suggest keep the openness and reach back out from its strengths. Photo links of where people have flown and maybe a printable calendar to some city kids in the schools. From the archives, let them pick a photo of the week. Its great PR when they get to see the whole picture of recreational aviation in action. There will still be some Idiots left of course and they will not be teachable. Hopefully the small minority of idiot pilots that are still around will even offer to take those up for a ride.

I see two different area's to consider with this idea.

#1 is the article that comes out about an accident that has just occurred. The word is already "out" and we all can learn from what may have happened, not to mention that we all know aviators throughout the country and seeing a post may prompt one of us to contact a friend or family member to make sure they are safe. This is similar in my opinion to reading the NTSB reports in order to become a better pilot. It's going to end up there anyways. Policing our comments on this site is the responsibility of the individual.

#2 is the incident that you may have witnessed or heard about that is not "public" and my not become public. While we can all still learn from what happened it's a good idea to use discression in how you describe the incident in order to protect the best interest of those involved and the future of backcountry flying. An example of this might be: "I once saw a pilot on an unimproved strip who came in way too high and fast and attempted a go around way to late causing him to hit a tree and just miss a structure". This opens up the possibility for discussion regarding density altitude, landing techniques and backcountry flying in general, but does not give a time, place or person, therefore, protecting us all from potential fallout. If a tree falls in the forest the only people who hear it are the ones close enough to hear it until they start blabbing to the rest of the world about how loud it was .

I regularly visit the NTSB reports and read accident articles to improve the safety of my own flying and see great value in doing so. Using discression is all of our responsibilities.

FWIW,

Clipwagon

You won't be charged, but I'll know who you are with some certainty.....

Then one day, when Master Zane accumulates enough CC numbers, BAM! ...and off to some Island Paradise he goes....
Never having to herd cats again.
....and he lives happily ever after...
The end

dirtstrip wrote:There is a striking similarity between this picture and animal activists in the livestock and hunting industries here. Livestock producers tried screening the help but they got in anyway and made videos misrepresenting the care received on farms, and they got press. Each time, the truth finally gets sorted out but the corrections don't get the same coverage.
My point is that lock downs and gate keepers will defeat the attraction people have for open forums in my opinion. The best defense to this is to build on the strengths of the freedom of the forum. Producers here have launched their own public awareness initiatives and that has proven to innoculate the public against these people. Some farms have even opened the doors for everyone and showed kids the farm, whole schools even. City folks can take getaways on some. I suggest keep the openness and reach back out from its strengths. Photo links of where people have flown and maybe a printable calendar to some city kids in the schools. From the archives, let them pick a photo of the week. Its great PR when they get to see the whole picture of recreational aviation in action. There will still be some Idiots left of course and they will not be teachable. Hopefully the small minority of idiot pilots that are still around will even offer to take those up for a ride.

X's 10+ Exactly Right!

Walk away from the negative and promote yourself and the activity you believe in, lead by example and educate everyone

aktahoe1 wrote:With all of the negative press on backcountry flying, over crowding, noise, etc., maybe we should not post (unless it comes from the person involved themselves) negative information. It only ends up spreading into the wrong hands and creates WAY to much negative.

Just a thought...

AKT

Sometimes in the first anaylsis the facts are little known or obscured. Yes, something happened to someone we know, and we know they are still with us..THAT's what really counts!!
Down the road all will become clear.
I will not speculate, second guess, or condemn. If and when I hear the facts first hand it is good enough for me!
My thoughts are for my friend as I have, along with others on this site, been in a similar situation. My satisfaction will be to shake his hand the next time I see him.

No matter how you handle it, if you are upside down on a remote strip, fly a plane with a come along and rope holding your landing gear in place, or for that matter running out of gas and landing on I-80 , the Feds will find out and want to know the particulars. Keeping it off this forum will not change that and haveing it on this forum will not make it worse.

Good luck

Tim

qmdv wrote:if you fly a plane with a come along and rope holding your landing gear in place,

he he he...that was a good one....

Littlecub wrote:

You won't be charged, but I'll know who you are with some certainty.....

Then one day, when Master Zane accumulates enough CC numbers, BAM! ...and off to some Island Paradise he goes....
Never having to herd cats again.
....and he lives happily ever after...
The end

Hey, I saw my opportunity and went for it.

Bighorn wrote:

dirtstrip wrote:quote]


X's 10+ Exactly Right!

Walk away from the negative and promote yourself and the activity you believe in, lead by example and educate everyone

Keep it positive and don't cover up the obvious.. There are enough current and retired LEO's on here to ask, but the bigger problem is the coverup... The Husky that hit the trees was witnessed by dozens and photographed... The plane was clearly damaged and it was a reportable"incident".. but it didn't show up on the Feds files. The up side down cub at Lower loon caused damage and that one too was not reported to the feds.... You can bet that sooner or later the feds will find out and evading their process will cause more harm then good. I would bet about every one of us look at the log books of any plane we might buy... I can just see a Husky and a cub for sale in a few years with the term " No Damage History" used in the advertising line..

Rant off...

tim is right, lets go fly and be responsible as hell. if we bend some metal, then accept that it comes with the territory...i believe all good bcp'ers should be first dirt bike racers, radical steep snow skiiers, or better yet come snowmobiling with me at 10000' plus for a day in butt-deep snow, with 200 + h.p. and work at keeping the whole group safe and living to ride another day...as sledders we cant ride the close-by wilderness legally, and the responsible ones dont. as pilots we have that opportunity in central idaho, lets for sure appreciate it. those other sports i mentioned will make u damn responsible in a hurry, having dug blue bodies out of snow several times changes the way that i think. sometimes revivable, yes. others u call the family and let them know that because he chose to go where he went, he ain't coming home...but, his choice for sure. the news does get out, no matter what...plus the bent metal really don't matter...be it a sled or a bird...as HC said, the people matter far more...

Great comments made above. As pilots we are looked up to by others; the general public, and our kids. That means we are also held to a higher standard. Generally, I will venture, we all know and understand the responsibility that comes with that. Reputations are hard won, and easily lost.

We owe it to ourselves, to those who have built the reputation before us, and to those whose futures will depend on it, to do the right thing (be responsible as jomac says). This is beginning to sound like political rhetoric so forgive me, but in the big picture, it really is important that we continue to be held in high regard by the general public since it is through their continued confidence in us as "pilots", that the privilege to fly will be maintained for us and future generations. Loose that, and so goes the privilege.

Off soap box now...

Try as we might - we can't stop talking about it. Dropping innuendo here are there. Anyone who knows knows that once information is in the public - it is cached and is likely already out there. Even if it is not - a subpoena will quickly take care of it and everyone knows it.

Nothing good comes from covering up. If there is no open discussion - this forum really loses it's appeal in a big way. We could just exchange emails - what is the forum for?

The inner toobs are crawling with worms and bots - we seem all up in arms about drones - but your information is recorded - for posterity.

I too am really glad nobody got hurt in the cause of this radio silence...

'Greg