So there's a guy selling a Kitfox two with a Rotax 582 in it near my house. He's asking $12,500 and it hasn't been flown for a few months. Looked like a great first airplane to own and cut my teeth on.

Any information you guys might have would be awesome. Does anyone have any good info or personal experience?

Do you know if the 582 is a blue top or the earlier silver top engine. The silver top had more problems with internal water pump seals leaking and the antifreeze getting into the engine bearings and seizing up. It would help to know the year of the manufacture of the Kitfox and the engine year. The Kitfox is a well regarded light flyer.

It's a light duty airplane to be flown in light duty conditions. If you can always fly within those parameters, and if you use the collective safety/reliability wisdom of the experienced Rotax 582 community, you could have an inexpensive airplane that is fun to fly. As we have already bandied about in a similar thread, however, take an honest look at the Taylorcraft BC-12D for close to the same money and make a list of the differences in favor of each. You can then make perhaps a more educated decision.

Bill

I have been flying a Model 2 Kitfox with Rotax 532 ( pre 582 ) for 12 years and 450 hours.
The 2 stroke never let me down but I recently converted to a 2200 Jabiru adding only 15 pounds
After flying the Jabiru I would not go back to the 532-582.
I would have prefered the Rotax 912 but the older Kitfox's have low gross weights and shorter fuselages so C. of G.
of heavier 912 is an issue.
I learned to fly in a 65 hp T-Craft. The Kitfox would be a more capable short strip airplane but is it wise to repeatedly
land on 400 foot strips.
You can buy a good T-Craft for the cost of a new Jabiru or 912 engine. A 100 hp T- Craft would have great performance.
IMO the baggage capacity and performance of the Just Highlander for example would make a better light weight back
country airplane than the older Kitfox or T-Craft but is it affordable?
If you have Model 2 Kitfox ? 's call Herman Pahls 541 404 6464 Oregon

Tic,
Here's a link to a little history on the Kitfox model 2.
http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/Model%20II.htm

Click the "Technical FAQ" on the left to pull up links to the 'Service letters" and "Service Bulletins".

If you decide you are interested, ask the seller if you can look at a copy of the weight and balance and run a few checks with loads you might want to fly with to see if it'll do.

Are you 2 stroke savy? You need to be very much so if you want to fly one.

I love my kitfox Classic 4.

I'm flying a B model Avid Flyer which is very similiar to a Kitfox II. It depends on what you really want to do if it's a good choice for you or not. If you want to load up your family and go camping...well prob not a good airplane. As far as cheap and fun flying goes you will not find anything better. If you learn to fly a Kitfox well you will be able to fly any taildragger IMO. I have enough room in mine to carry enough gear for a week long camping trip and full fuel. There's a group from Southern California that does a trip to Idaho and hits all the strips every year flying Kitfox's and Avids. You can fold the wings up in 10 minutes with one guy and keep it in your garage or share a 1/3rd of a hangar with someone. The 582 burns about 4gph of mogas. Don't let that engine scare you. I have a hunch that all the people that say all the bad things about 2 strokes are the same guys that can't figure out how to start their weedwhackers. There is a ton of information out there on tuning and operating one. You CANNOT beat the power to weight ratio of a two stroke. Sure I'd like to have a Jab or 912 on mine. I priced out both and just the engines alone were almost twice what I have into my entire airplane. A new 912 FWF will run you 20K at least. 12.5 is a good price IF the aircraft is in decent shape. I have been around the Kitfox/Avids and two strokes for a long time. Do a search on Youtube for Kitfox and you will find a ton of videos to give you an idea of the performance of these awesome little airplanes. If you get time check out www.avidfoxflyers.com there are at least two guys in AK on there flying Kitfoxs/Avids. If you have any other questions PM me.
Joey
N279AF
Avid Flyer HH 582 Rotax

I'm crafting an email to send to the Kitfox's owner and any help you guys can provide would be well appreciated. Here's the questions I've come up with so far.

When is the annual due?
What year was it built?
Is it a blue head or silver head Rotax? (Should literally be a blue head/silver head right?)

I went and looked at it again last night. The engine's head is a silver color so I'm assuming it's a "silver head". There are some very minor rust spots but doesn't seem to be anything really prolific. Looks to be the original fabric with some patches here and there. The right wing has some hangar rash and the windscreen is in "OK" condition. These are electric start motors, right?

(I've been looking at Taylorcrafts/Champs/140s as well so please don't tell me to buy one.)

Here's the ad..........

KitFox Aircraft - $12500 OBO before December.
Winter Sale. Reduced from $14500. Fold the wings and garage it.
Current annual inspection.

Power Plant:
• Rotex 582 – 4 gal/hr. cruise and a very reliable 65 hp Rotex product; oil injection, Jacober mixture controls and EGTs. Annual 10/08.
• Ground adjustable-pitch IVO propeller.
• 338 hours total time on engine and airframe since new. Runs perfectly.
• Well maintained; new radiator, hoses, fuel pump, battery.
• No winter preheat necessary for Rotex 582.

Airframe:
• New fabric and paint where needed.
• All powder-coated tubing.
• Folding wings (5-10 min procedure) for transport and indoor storage.
• New bungees, tires (slightly larger than in photos, manuals, spare parts.

Misc:
• STOL performance with less than 100’ takeoff run.
• 950 lb Gross weight with 450 lb Useful Load.
• Extended Fuel: 23-27 gallons.
• Float& ski fittings, hand-held radio/VOR, GPS.

OK, I won't mention the T-craft...

When yuou go to see the Kitfox again, check the glue joints between the aluminum tube "spars" and the wood ribs. They are glued together with some kind of JB Weld stuff. Problem is, you cannot bond to bare aluminum very well using epoxy. You only get a small percentage of the base material strength. That's OK if the airplane was designed for it, which the KF probably was. But if the wings have been damaged or hangar rash bumped, you should look to see that none of the rib glue joints have cracked.

Check for any wear or worn holes in the wing attach fittings and strut attach fittings. It is a fairly light duty structure, so I would expect that any excess loads from turbulence or G loads or hard landings would manifest themselves in a little looseness in the bolted fittings. This is not a prediction or trying to spook you, it's just some potential safety stuff you should look at during a pre-buy.

On an airplane I owned recently, we lifted the airplane off the ground on one side by lifting at the Port wing/strut junction. As we lifted it, we heard a faint CLUNK coming from the wing root attach fitting. Sure enough, the holes in the fuselage longeron fitting, and the holes in the spar root fitting, had worn oval a little. And this was on a thick steel fitting on a certified airplane (which I agreed not to mention here).

There are also a fair number of commercial grade blind rivets on the Avid/Kitfox design. Again if it was designed for this it's no problem, but the pop rivets will get looser and move around faster than a Cherry or AN rivet. So look for any dark circles around the rivet heads that could indicate they were "working" over time.

The fabric stuff is fairly easy and cheap to fix, and easy enough to do over entirely... so unless it's falling off or ripped you should not worry much about it on an experimental airplane.

Talk to experienced Rotax flyers and find out what to look for on the motor, I can't speak from any experience there.

If you buy the Kitfox, enjoy the HELL out of it! Just remember to fly it well within the limits of the lightweight structure, and take care of the engine veryw ell.

Thanks, EXFlap

Don't misinterpret me abou the T-Crafts. I'd prefer one but this about half the price and I'm looking at this as something to fly for about a year or two and upgrade to the more expensive certified planes. It's also about ten minutes from my house and the T-Crates are thousands of miles away in the lower 48.

Here's the answers I got back from him:

When is the annual due? Soon...it was annualled last Nov.

What year was it built? 1990

Is it a blue head or silver head Rotax? Silver, but it's a minor difference and this one's in great shape and has Jacober mix controls

Do you have skis for the aircraft? Not anymore, but are available...I think even in town

I'm looking seriously into having a mechanic look at this plane as I just don't know enough yet to get an accurate idea of it's structural integrity. I'll pass on what you said to him when that's done. TCJ pointed out the service bulletins as well.

You said it yourself: Find a mechanic who has Rotax experience and/or homebuilt and rag/tube experience. Better to pay someone a few bucks to give you a straight answer than to spend many many hours and dollars fixing stuff you should have caught in a pre-buy. Don't use the seller's mechanic. If the seller is unwilling to let an outside mechanic take a look, walk away.

I think it was mentioned before, but the silver head 582 had some leaky water pump issues due to its stationary rubber seal on a rotary water pump. The blue head was designed with a better and more reliable seal. There are other improvements too, but that is the big one. Otherwise it is a good engine. We're not talking an issue where the silver throws rods and the blue doesn't, it's pretty minor.

Also, it's important to note that mfr-recommended TBO on Rotax 2-strokes is ~300 hrs. Real life TBO's are closer to 500 hrs, but you get the picture. It's a bargaining point.

The silver head water pump issues went away after they figured out that you could only run non silica based anti freeze in them. There are lots of companies out there they will machine your block and install the ceramic water pump seal essentially making it a blue head. That one probably has a B or C model gearbox which puts the starter on the back of the engine.

Good catch 1SeventyZ, I hadn't even thought about the TBO. I'm so used to them being closer to 2K hrs I didn't think to check that.

Anyone have an idea of what an overhaul would cost? Rough estimate?

A 582 rebuild runs anywhere from $2000 to $3000 if you pay someone else to do it. It would be a simple task except Rotax recommends a factory new crank every 300hrs which is rediculous IMO. The one I've been flying almost everyday has a lot more than that on it. That engine is probably fine hour wise but they also recommend a rebuild every 5 years because of the seals. If a crank seal goes on a two stroke it will self destruct in very short order. I'd inquire on whether or not he's ever torn it down and replaced the seals or at least did a leak check on it. If it's never been torn down since 1990 I'd do a zero time rebuild on it before I flew it much. Either way you have a bargaining point.

Tick.... Did you see my 140 is for sale? I'm not that far from you. And for a couple a K more you'll have a 115hp 0235 little screamer. Complete with skis, 3 props engine, wing and windscreen covers. Annual not due until May.

Chickenair - PM sent

Tick, as you've read around here, I'm a big fan of ultralights, LSA, 2-strokes, experimentals, etc. BUT, one thing I probably wouldn't do is expect to buy an amateur-homebuilt Experimental from someone at a bargain price and expect to be flying safely soon. Personally I'd plan on overhauling the engine for peace of mind and going through the whole airfram with a fine-tooth comb. I just see that realm as something you build yourself so you know every last inch of it with confidence.

For get in, turn the key, and start flying machines, I think something like Chickenair's tuned-up 140 is a better choice.

EZ Flap,
Lets not equate a low gross weight, which the Kitfox II has, with light weight use! ANY aircraft consistantly flown over gross, poorly maintained, too fast etc, will suffer, as you mention in the cert plane with the sloppy joints. There has NEVER been a structural collapse of a Kitfox/Avid type wing (I'm going out on a limb here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong....I'm just repeating what I've heard), and considering the fleet hours, and wide range of builder skills and piloting skills, thats saying a lot! The epoxy is not JB WELD, (although...JB is GREAT stuff!) and yes it is indeed designed for its use, bumping it in a hanger will break the plywood rib before the glue joint gives way. Many of the type have of course crashed, they hold up as well as can be expected, the glue joints are never the problem. You make many good points, and if you meant don't put 40 gallons (somehow) of fuel, and 2 250 lber's, and (somehow 200 lbs of gear) and operate out of a plowed field I fully agree. I thrashed my Kitfox 1 ('88 model) pretty good for 650 hrs, its still flying, I just USED it not ABUSED it. Although I am not flying the type anymore, the lastest Highlander models illustrate they are solid, but "lightweight", aircraft. If you meant certified designs can consistantly operate over their design limits and suffer fewer complications then a Kitfox type homebuilt, you are on shakey ground....
I too, love the T-craft, and agree it may be a better bang for the buck, I made 3 K when I sold mine, that owner made money when she sold it, as did the next owner (this in 9 years), then I got to ferry it up to Bozeman where it is still, no doubt providing cheap flying.


OK, I won't mention the T-craft...

When yuou go to see the Kitfox again, check the glue joints between the aluminum tube "spars" and the wood ribs. They are glued together with some kind of JB Weld stuff. Problem is, you cannot bond to bare aluminum very well using epoxy. You only get a small percentage of the base material strength. That's OK if the airplane was designed for it, which the KF probably was. But if the wings have been damaged or hangar rash bumped, you should look to see that none of the rib glue joints have cracked.

Check for any wear or worn holes in the wing attach fittings and strut attach fittings. It is a fairly light duty structure, so I would expect that any excess loads from turbulence or G loads or hard landings would manifest themselves in a little looseness in the bolted fittings. This is not a prediction or trying to spook you, it's just some potential safety stuff you should look at during a pre-buy.

On an airplane I owned recently, we lifted the airplane off the ground on one side by lifting at the Port wing/strut junction. As we lifted it, we heard a faint CLUNK coming from the wing root attach fitting. Sure enough, the holes in the fuselage longeron fitting, and the holes in the spar root fitting, had worn oval a little. And this was on a thick steel fitting on a certified airplane (which I agreed not to mention here).

There are also a fair number of commercial grade blind rivets on the Avid/Kitfox design. Again if it was designed for this it's no problem, but the pop rivets will get looser and move around faster than a Cherry or AN rivet. So look for any dark circles around the rivet heads that could indicate they were "working" over time.

The fabric stuff is fairly easy and cheap to fix, and easy enough to do over entirely... so unless it's falling off or ripped you should not worry much about it on an experimental airplane.

Talk to experienced Rotax flyers and find out what to look for on the motor, I can't speak from any experience there.

If you buy the Kitfox, enjoy the HELL out of it! Just remember to fly it well within the limits of the lightweight structure, and take care of the engine veryw ell.

There is a big engine t-craft in alaska on barnstormers right now for 20K. Timed out engine but looks like a lot of fun if its in your price range.