I am sure this question has been answered, but I have been unable to find adequate information. As a way to more economically keep the flying bug at bay, I have been researching trailer able airplanes such as the Kitfox. The older models with a 582 seem like a bargain (Im working up the courage to fly behind one:) I assume an older Kitfox, lets say a model 2, would have been registered as a “standard” experimental. Can I convert one to ELSA and make use of the 16 hour maintenance course, so I can do my own condition inspection?

I fly my 582 powered Avid all over the Backcountry. I just flew from California to Idaho and back. Do some reading on the EAA website. They have some great information on that stuff. I am not super familiar with it. I believe it's possible but it will be a paperwork nightmare. Keep in mind it only requires and A&P sign off not an IA because it's a conditional inspection not an annual. I do a 1/2 day owner assisted inspection with an A&P on mine. I basically pay him a little money for his sig. I figure it's good to have someone's elses eyes on my plane once in a while anyways.

I don't believe you can take an EAB (experimental amature built) in to the Elsa this was done to allow the heavy ultralights in and get an N number. With an EAB your options as far a what you can do to your plane are not limited. My yearly condition inspection on my kitfox 4 cost me $150. I do all the work myself and enjoy the fact that the a&p looks it over well.
Hope this helps,
Nick

tsperry88 wrote:.... Can I convert one to ELSA and make use of the 16 hour maintenance course, so I can do my own condition inspection?

I've heard this same thought before-- usually expressed as "I want an experimental so I can do my own annuals". Esp since as AF pointed out, an A&P can do the condition inspection (no IA required), it doesn't seem to me that paying a few hundred bucks once a year should be much of a factor. You'll spend more than that for the average weekend airplane getaway. FWIW I pinch pennies pretty hard, but still usually spend somewhere around $7-8K a year on my flying (even on an off year). A few hours of a mechanic's time is just a drop in that bucket.

Simple answer: NO, you can't. If you aren't the original builder of an EAB, you cannot do the annual condition inspection, and you cannot convert an EAB airplane to an ELSA airplane, which must be based on anSLSA airplane.

No free lunches.

MTV

My Kitfox IV is registered as an e-lsa. Unfortunately the window to do that was very narrow (by design) and has closed some years ago.

Buying an armature built experimental is a great way to save Maintenance money. You can do all the work yourself and only need an a&p to sign off the yearly condition inspection. With a simple plane like a Kitfox this should be no more than a couple hundred dollars. You are just buying a signature and would have already done all the work yourself. The a&p is just inspecting.

The Kitfoxes are fun planes and have a good following. I had a 582 in my S-12. It is a decent engine and was very dependable. Just beware that many of the early kit foxes/Avids had fiberglass fuel tanks. If you can only get ethanol gas I would look elsewhere. The ethanol dissolves the tanks and fuel lines. The fibers and resin clog the filters and carbs.
The kit fox is a pretty simple plane. Maintenance is easy and the condition inspection is cheap. Might have a hard time finding someone to sign off the 2-stroke 582 though.

Their tanks are still fiberglass, just with an updated resin that is resistant to ethanol contamination. Kitfox offers a replacement tank kit for the earlier planes. They have for several years with great success. Replacing the tanks is not a super difficult job, just some fabric repair and fuel lines.

I have the old tanks in my flying plane now. They are cream coated on the inside, to date I have not had any issues, though I can still get non-ethanol contaminated fuel here. That is one thing to consider.

100LL is a viable fuel in the 2-strokes. It works well and will not damage the old style tanks - another option.

From my experience finding an A&P that can deal with 2-strokes is not too hard either, especially if you are doing the maintenance yourself and can "instruct" them on what needs to be inspected and how come the time.

You guys helped eliminate my fear of annualling an experimental. I'll be at Oshkosh a few days, and will hopefully get a better idea of what I want and dont want. I am comfortable working on 2 strokes, but flying behind one at 5-6k rpm is still a little intimidating. I have never been around anything rotax. The fuel tank problems I have read about. It looks like kitfox updated their resin in 1996. One guy claimed the new ethanol resistant tank gummed up his 912. (See the URL below) It also looks like Kitfox made another resin change, and I dont know which version the post in referencing.

http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1844 (See post 3)

Quote:
We have done some changes over that past 6 months... although I do not think our tanks as of 1996 to 2007 have had any specific issues. (no reported issues)

As of this year we are using a new resin. To date.. we have put some pretty harsh materials in them with no effect. For the last several months they have had both 10% and 85% ethanol fuels in them and no effect.

I will not go into the details of the resins as it is proprietary information.

Fly Safe !!

FWIW I've burned over a 1000 gallons of Ethanol 91Octane fuel through my plane in the past 3 years. It has 20+year old fiberglass tanks in it. I also use the blue poly line that you can see through. I can see all of my fuel line and filter in my system during a preflight. I've so far not had any issues...BUT.... I premix my fuel so there is oil inside the tanks. Also I rarely keep more than 10 gallons on board and I put a fresh 5 gallon can in everytime I fly which is frequently. The guys that are having issues are the ones that put 20 gallons of raw ethanol fuel in and then don't fly for 3 months. If you keep that stuff circulating you will be fine. The difference in price is close to $2.00 a gallon. Until I have some undeniable evidence that pump gas is causing issues I'm going to keep running it.

If you end up with a 582 PM me and I'll teach what you need to know to operate one safely and successfully.

I installed the new tanks in my model 4, its not that bad a job. I to had the brown gunk issue also. I think the brown gunk was just leftover mold release agent. I only got it one time and it was also the first time I ran ethonal gas. My theory is when I rinsed with acetone there was some residue left in the tanks, and ethonal being a good solvent finished the cleaning while I was flying. Next startup plane ran rough popped the carbs off. They were covered in brown gunk. Cleaned right up with carb cleaner. Has run fine ever since. I don't think the brown stuff was the tank breaking down, just leftover mold release chemicals.
.
I never fly with ethonal gas that is older than 1 week

Foxflyer did you cut the fabric on top of the wing to change your tanks? I have one leaking and wasnt sure how to change it. thanks

cropduster13 wrote:Foxflyer did you cut the fabric on top of the wing to change your tanks? I have one leaking and wasnt sure how to change it. thanks

Yep that's what you have to do.

Muchas Gracias!!

Just a couple more things. I seal up the vent with a plastic baggie and a bread wrapper tie so as to slow down air coming and going into the tanks. Also, I have an unmodified 1992 Toyota 4x4 that I have used 50% ethanol for over 11 years. Sometimes it takes months to use up a tank of fuel but has never yet been a problem.