Theoretical Questions:

Profile: VFR, R44, RNAV only, ADSB out
Route: KDVO -> JULOS -> KHAF
Attitude: < 1600’ MSL

1) Looks like I don’t need a clearance? Although, it wouldn’t be bad to get flight following?
2) Anyone’s personal experience flying similar routes along coast?




1# EDIT: Add ADSB out to profile
2# EDIT: Add “FOG” to title

Nothing wrong with that route. Obviously you need ADS-B out now and clearance IF you want to go through the bravo airspace

Watch out for the significant hanggliding/paragliding activity at Fort Funston and Westlake off Daly City.
On your map thats from JULOS to a couple miles north of that.
Or another way to describe - from the cliffs off Pacifica north to Ocean Beach where the cliffs disappear.

They usually remain in a band not more than a few hundred feet over the cliff tops and less than a quarter mile in front or in back of the cliff. If your'e off shore a quarter to half a mile, you'll be clear of them.

cheers,
Pete

c170pete wrote:Nothing wrong with that route. Obviously you need ADS-B out now and clearance IF you want to go through the bravo airspace

Watch out for the significant hanggliding/paragliding activity at Fort Funston and Westlake off Daly City.
On your map thats from JULOS to a couple miles north of that.
Or another way to describe - from the cliffs off Pacifica north to Ocean Beach where the cliffs disappear.

They usually remain in a band not more than a few hundred feet over the cliff tops and less than a quarter mile in front or in back of the cliff. If your'e off shore a quarter to half a mile, you'll be clear of them.

cheers,
Pete

Hi Pete,

I appreciate your guidance and it looks like I’m on the same page.

Thank you!

Side notes:

The diurnal winds around KSFO can be brutal:

KSFO Sunday recorded gusts to 45 knots (which is gale force) and then...Monday recorded calm. Best to transition before 11:00 PDLT when the Pacific High is maxing out. If, avoiding orographic and terrain related turbulence. Reminds me of Kahului Maui!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale



Ted

Don’t forget about the fog. The marine layer is almost always there in some capacity. I used to live in SF and fall/winter was the best Weather. October was my favorite month because you could actually hit the beach up and get some sun. Summer is the worst time for consistent fog.

The fog comes in during the night and will subside during the late morning / early afternoon, sometimes letting the beaches get some sun. the winds associated with it are consistent, blowing on shore. So are the forecasts for SFO AND OAK. IFR and calm in the early hours of the morning, clearing a bit by the late morning/early afternoon with the winds building on-shore to 15-25 by the late afternoon. Some days the fog is pushing back inland by the evening, which gives even less time to tour the bay. Half moon bay is a challenge to get into.

I am based about 15 miles inland and this time of year I will leave my house for work (I work on the east side of the bay) In the morning with it sunny and 70. The 10 minute drive to my work changes everything, as I will show up and it’s 50 degrees blowing 15 kts.

The TAFs for SFO and the associated forecast discussion should give you a good idea of how strong the marine layer is and when and how far It will push in-land. Those rare days that you wake up and it’s sunny make it all worth it and the bay tour would be amazing.

Anyways, hope my rambling weather report helps ya out! Like I said, just read the discussion associated with the TAFs for SFO/OAK and you will get good info on the marine layer and when to make your trip. Also, check the morning visible satellite, it will help you see where the fog is. If it shows your route clear that morning, good chance it will stay that way.

Also, the NorCal approach controllers are all familiar with the “bay tour,” so if you are passing through and want to sight see, just let them know you want to do a bay tour on your way to half moon bay. They will give you traffic advisories as you circle Alcatraz and the Golden Gate Bridge and then help you transition the class Bravo if necessary on your way to half moon bay, however your route does keep you clear of the bravo.

FFSchooley wrote:Don’t forget about the fog. The marine layer is almost always there in some capacity. I used to live in SF and fall/winter was the best Weather. October was my favorite month because you could actually hit the beach up and get some sun. Summer is the worst time for consistent fog.

The fog comes in during the night and will subside during the late morning / early afternoon, sometimes letting the beaches get some sun. the winds associated with it are consistent, blowing on shore. So are the forecasts for SFO AND OAK. IFR and calm in the early hours of the morning, clearing a bit by the late morning/early afternoon with the winds building on-shore to 15-25 by the late afternoon. Some days the fog is pushing back inland by the evening, which gives even less time to tour the bay. Half moon bay is a challenge to get into.

I am based about 15 miles inland and this time of year I will leave my house for work (I work on the east side of the bay) In the morning with it sunny and 70. The 10 minute drive to my work changes everything, as I will show up and it’s 50 degrees blowing 15 kts.

The TAFs for SFO and the associated forecast discussion should give you a good idea of how strong the marine layer is and when and how far It will push in-land. Those rare days that you wake up and it’s sunny make it all worth it and the bay tour would be amazing.

Anyways, hope my rambling weather report helps ya out! Like I said, just read the discussion associated with the TAFs for SFO/OAK and you will get good info on the marine layer and when to make your trip. Also, check the morning visible satellite, it will help you see where the fog is. If it shows your route clear that morning, good chance it will stay that way.

Also, the NorCal approach controllers are all familiar with the “bay tour,” so if you are passing through and want to sight see, just let them know you want to do a bay tour on your way to half moon bay. They will give you traffic advisories as you circle Alcatraz and the Golden Gate Bridge and then help you transition the class Bravo if necessary on your way to half moon bay, however your route does keep you clear of the bravo.

Thank you for the fog reminder. I used to fly LIDAR ships out of Reid Hill (RHV) which was too far East to have fog, on most days. Never been on the coast. So, I’m really thankful for your guidance!

I’m really super stoked to see the storied areas of San Francisco. An absolute icon. My wife is from Hawaii and will be really amazed to see the area.

Very thorough analysis of the fog situation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_fog

BTW are you from Australia? The name FFSchooley sounds familiar.

Nope, California native. Raised in the Bay Area and the mountains near Yosemite.

FFSchooley wrote:Nope, California native. Raised in the Bay Area and the mountains near Yosemite.

Very well. I skied Badger Pass in the 60’s!

I used to stay in Yosemite Valley, Camp 4 many years ago. Do you know a climber named Hans Florine? I climbed a few routes with him many years ago. I love name dropping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Florine

The Nose of El Capitan: Former speed record with Alex Honnold, June 17, 2012. Time: 2:23:46[6][18] or 2:23:5

I do know Hans! He owns the rock climbing gym I am a member at. He is often there climbing or working out. Haven’t ever talked to him but I know all about him as I use to climb quite a bit. Always wanted to live in camp 4 when I was younger

FFSchooley wrote:I do know Hans! He owns the rock climbing gym I am a member at. He is often there climbing or working out. Haven’t ever talked to him but I know all about him as I use to climb quite a bit. Always wanted to live in camp 4 when I was younger

If you see him...Tell him “Hello” from the guy with the yellow seaplane!

The route along the coast is fun when it's clear. Just beware of the Marine Sanctuary at Fitzgerald Marine Preserve just north of KHAF. There's a minimum overflight altitude that's often up in the fog. Mt. San Pedro (the top of the cliffs inland of the coast at Devil's Slide) is also frequently shrouded in fog. If your goal is to get to Half Moon Bay, I'd do your loitering and photos around SF (outside of the Class B surface area) and then ask for a Class B transition along 101 south towards San Carlos. Once clear of the Class B surface area, you can go to KHAF if the gap over highway 92 is open. The controllers are quite accommodating, especially in these days of reduced traffic. If it's too windy and/or foggy to do the transition along 101 past SFO, there are other alternatives to the east that you're probably familiar with, having flown out of Reid Hillview.

CAVU

CAVU wrote:The route along the coast is fun when it's clear. Just beware of the Marine Sanctuary at Fitzgerald Marine Preserve just north of KHAF. There's a minimum overflight altitude that's often up in the fog. Mt. San Pedro (the top of the cliffs inland of the coast at Devil's Slide) is also frequently shrouded in fog.

Yes, I see the Fitzgerald Marine Preserve just north of KHAF. Thanks!

CAVU wrote: If your goal is to get to Half Moon Bay, I'd do your loitering and photos around SF (outside of the Class B surface area) and then ask for a Class B transition along 101 south towards San Carlos. Once clear of the Class B surface area, you can go to KHAF if the gap over highway 92 is open. The controllers are quite accommodating, especially in these days of reduced traffic.

I should have plenty of fuel departing Petaluma (069) Southbound to see the central Bay. I agree, NorCal controllers seem real cool considering AOR. Good guidance,

CAVU wrote:If it's too windy and/or foggy to do the transition along 101 past SFO, there are other alternatives to the east that you're probably familiar with, having flown out of Reid Hillview.

I’ll definitely be ready to amend routing to the East if conditions preclude.

All you guys answering my calls for help, on this thread, make really good co-pilots! Mahalo!

Typical ‘June gloom”...

(6) more days to Summer and my following observation of weather on the coastal San Francisco Class B VFR routes.

The marine layer is being pushed inland from the ocean due to onshore winds. KHAF is IFR: The flow will lift later in the day I predict.

08:16 PDT (05:16 HST)

Fog


IFR


Wind pushing fog inland

More armchair navigation...

Fast forward (9) hours from the previous post above.

(As I was warned) KHAF, Half Moon Bay never cleared the marine layer today. Neither did Monterey. Currently the vast majority of California, Oregon and Washington reported VFR ceilings and VFR visibility

16:30 PDT, inland is clear. KHAF and Monterey still have marine layer entire day


IFR @ KHAF


KHAF Northwest wind wasn’t enough to clear the marine layer

Looking out the window, the fog is pushing in and the wind is pickin up!

FFSchooley wrote:Looking out the window, the fog is pushing in and the wind is pickin up!

Is the wind more North-northwest than usual? Colder wind today from observing the METARS I see?

Thank you. I appreciate the PIREP. Not to be too personal but, where is your general location?

I’m close to KCCR in concord.

One thing to note is often the wind cause by the fog will be separate from the over all wind pattern, meaning that locally at lower altitudes (up to about 3000ft) the wind will be from the west flowing through the bay and up the delta. Then as you get higher you will have the winds change to align with the overall flow going on at the time. This will often cause wind shear and/or turbulence at that transition point. You will see this often in the forecast for OAK/SFO.

See the two photos below. The first is at the surface, the other at 5000’ Not the best example this morning, but you can see the local flow from the bay up the delta with the upper level flow from the north west.

FFSchooley wrote:I’m close to KCCR in concord.

One thing to note is often the wind cause by the fog will be separate from the over all wind pattern, meaning that locally at lower altitudes (up to about 3000ft) the wind will be from the west flowing through the bay and up the delta. Then as you get higher you will have the winds change to align with the overall flow going on at the time. This will often cause wind shear and/or turbulence at that transition point. You will see this often in the forecast for OAK/SFO.

See the two photos below. The first is at the surface, the other at 5000’ Not the best example this morning, but you can see the local flow from the bay up the delta with the upper level flow from the north west.

FFE26F53-316F-42B3-AFA8-19C91184AA59.png

333EF533-D97A-471F-9DAD-F08B2C671313.png

Very good analysis. I understand and agree.

The biggest, consistent and dominant weather pattern is the “Summer” Pacific High pressure. Honolulu and California are on the perimeter where the pressure gradient (strongest wind) has the most contrast (the center is calm, I have been there in a sailboat, total doldrums!)

The morning sea and land breezes generally dominate the coastal areas below 3000’ MSL I see from your pictures. Even in Hawaii the heating and cooling of the land effects wind but, offshore the trades are howling day and night.

The Pacific High Pressure rarely (if ever) moves this time of year. That’s why the Trans PAC leaves in July (Los Angles to Honolulu sailing race)

Today’s surface analysis with my iPAD markup:

I was based in KHAF for years and have done that flight up and down the coast many times.

No two days are typically the same, but you got a bunch of good advice already.

No need to fly though the Bravo airspace. I have always just gone below it.

I have been VFR on top of a solid layer for parts of that flight. Then you get to KHAF and half the airport is IMC to the ground and the other half is clear.

Although an approach in those conditions means I'm committed without the ability to go around, it's a huge runway and when enough of it is clear of clouds/fog, it's been easy to get in and out.

Some people take off on "30R". When we link up in person someday, I'll tell you more about that. [emoji6]

Aryana wrote:I was based in KHAF for years and have done that flight up and down the coast many times.

No two days are typically the same, but you got a bunch of good advice already.

No need to fly though the Bravo airspace. I have always just gone below it.

I have been VFR on top of a solid layer for parts of that flight. Then you get to KHAF and half the airport is IMC to the ground and the other half is clear.

Although an approach in those conditions means I'm committed without the ability to go around, it's a huge runway and when enough of it is clear of clouds/fog, it's been easy to get in and out.

Some people take off on "30R". When we link up in person someday, I'll tell you more about that. [emoji6]

Very good! Thank you for relaying the local knowledge. Hope to see you and your helicopter one day!

Update on travel: With the Hawaii quarantine still in affect and absolutely no plan to reopen(1*) from the Governor, looking at delaying the trip (2*). But, still vigorously planning just in case the outlook changes!

(1*) my wife does not want to go into quarantine when we return
(2*) tentative plan was announced opening 31-JUL, but it’s changed several times from Government

Interesting, low pressure systems South & North of the San Joaquin Valley. Photo #1 & 2

Central California looks great for a little (theoretical) early morning cross country. There are NWS wind (and dry/hot weather) warnings issued offshore all the way to Nevada. Please see photo attached #3, so be careful of strong winds in the afternoon.

PHOTO #1



PHOTO #2



PHOTO #3