I am trying to work on my energy management skills, and have discovered something a bit strange with lazy eights. I borrow a friends Savage Cub with a 100 hors Rotax. Havent done them in a long time, and it shows.

I started out doing very shallow lazy eights again and try and get a feel for them, and began pulling back and banking a little more vigurously. I dont think I am doing them particularly aggressive. At a certain point something very strange happens when turning to the right. I pull back, trade speed for altitude, bank to the right… And the ball goes to the left!? When turning right, the Savage requires much less rudder than when turning left - but LEFT rudder?

It feels like I should be using right rudder, but the centripetal acceleration knows better than me whats going on. I can force myself to step on top rudder, but I would feel a lot better if I knew or could visualize what is going on. First, I thought it must be some kind of illusion, but Ive been out three times now, and everytime I do them with more than a little vigour the ball goes to the left on right turns. It must have something to do with either the wing being lightly loaded or the propwash hitting the fuselage differently as the plane follows vertical curve.

Any ideas?

With the prop turning clockwise (most north American models), the left turning tendencies torque, corkscrew, precession, and Prop factor would all want right rudder with other factors being equal. I am not familiar with Rotex. Do they use some counter clockwise turning engines? 100 hp is not a lot of torque and P factor is a rapid increase in pitch thing and corkscrew is supposed to be countered at cruise with vertical stabilizer offset...wait, that effect would be less when slow causing more need for right rudder. Is the prop turning counter clockwise when viewed from the pilots seat? We need some help from the Rotex guys here.

Its turning clockwise when viewed from behind. So right rudder on takeoff. In other situations I think I am doing a fairly OK job at keeping it coordinated. I would say its a very friendly and docile plane.

Try some 45 degree bank Dutch rolls. Lead rudder should be required both in bank to left and bank to right. See how that goes.

Dutch rolls at 45 are fine - sort of. I can string about six decently coordinated together before I start making a mess. They require liberal amounts of rudder as they should.

There has to be something going on in the lazy eights. Maybe unloadning the wings is a factor, maybe the curve, maybe I am uncounciously messing it up. Why it should happen on right turns when left turns, I dont know.

I havent had the chance to fly with an instructor yet. Its a small club and not a school.

Shoot an over the shoulder video and post. I've been working with a CPL "learner" in his B36TC.

I will try and do that. Wont be until next weekend earliest. I Should be more systematic in how I improve my timing. I see some people saying you should bank just ever so slightly before you pull up, and let the plane increase bank by itself until desired bank/turn rate is achieved. Others say you should pull back first, then bank. So the is apparently some room here to play with. I cant rule out that overthink and/or make unintended inputs.

The bank and climb technique is used in both the lazy eight and chandell and can be used in the energy management turn at altitude. Both the pull up g curved flight and the banked curved flight add gs using that technique, however. I teach the wings level pull up for clarity of purpose and because in back to back spraying we needed a bit more altitude gain than either race track pattern spraying, aerial gunnery, or lazy eight.

Understand, in chandell or lazy eight or race track pattern spraying, that we are pulling gs both with the pull up and with the turn. This becomes a big no no in the pitched down portion of any maneuver close to the ground. The graveyard spiral was named accurately. We absolutely want wings level for the pull up out of a dive near terrain. As many gunships have gone down in graveyard spiral as in target fixation. This is not the problem crop dusting as having a wing down going over wires into the field is incentive not to still be turning when we pull up.

I expect the difference from normal turns in the pull up for either either lazy eight, the non-instrument one we did in the old days, or the energy management turn is the great amount of rudder in the direction of turn needed at slow flight airspeed. I expect you are leaning into my exaggeration of the need and using too much rudder where you want to slice down through the horizon and seeing the ball go out left. Try just using kinetic feel to just do what the airplane wants to do rather than flying reactively by reference to instruments (the ball.) I think that is the fix you need. Be careful and have fun. KISS. Don't overthink it or let us overthink it for you. The airplane knows what to do when slow. It will get the nose down just fine. And shallow to medium energy management turns are not as big a deal as lazy eight. We only pitch up a slight bit and then allow the nose to drop onto the target in the new direction. Pitch wings level a bit, lead rudder in bank, and let the airplane do what it does. If we let the nose go the wrong way first, adverse yaw, we can get into some control problems fixing things. This is ten times as true at slow airspeed.

If you are using the school training handbook on the lazy eight, throw it away. It is not an instrument maneuver. We are listening to the airplane and not flying by reference to instruments...including the ball. The airplane is quiet about rudder need. It will just yaw the nose the wrong way if you get on aileron first. About the need, when slow, to get the nose down. It will scream, "quit pulling back."

Just a guess, pitch is down, up swinging prop blade has more thrust than right side (low angle of attack) down swinging blade? Thus p factor is yawing you to the right?
Am I out in left field?

P factor on clockwise turning prop is one of the left turning factors. It would move the ball to the right without right rudder. It would be most noticeable with first pitch up and rudder for P factor should already be in by the time he leads rudder further right and banks right. I see nothing moving the ball out left other than right rudder, however, the ball is moving around a lot in rough air and or rough controlling such that going for the proper kinetic feel rather than reacting to the ball is less likely to get out of sequence with the airplane. This is easy to see in Dutch rolls when we don't lead rudder. The nose goes the wrong way, we step on the ball but with the rapid change of control movement generally, we get out of sequence. Sit on the bench out at the airport and watch the wing wagging of airplanes from aileron usage which yaws the nose the unexpected way first to see the effect of this.

Still learning, I see your point with the negative pitch. But after the pitch up wings level, he is leading right rudder along with right aileron to bank right while also relaxing back pressure to allow the dynamic neutral stability of the airplane to bring the nose down (a 1 g deal) so that along with the bank it is soon pointing at the target on the ground. He is not pushing the nose down with forward stick to unload the wing, which might have the effect your mention. I don't know as I don't unload the wing. I just release all the back pressure used to pitch up wings level to gain a bit of altitude and slow enough for a tight radius of turn, assuming I had cruise airspeed or at least some zoom reserve airspeed to begin with.

The energy management turn used in air to ground gunnery and in crop dusting and even in making various banked turns on rivers or pipelines is not acrobatic. The control movements are more rapid than in air taxi flying but not as rapid and to the stop type as in acrobatics. It needs to be smooth, not violent. I think the backwards effect or right turning factor you mention, Still learning, would be from very aggressive control movement like the rapid pitch down of unloading the wing. We are after 1 g here, not 0 g or negative g. We don't want to get light in the seat as with the nose dump stall recovery pitch down. Good thought, however.

StillLearning wrote:Just a guess, pitch is down, up swinging prop blade has more thrust than right side (low angle of attack) down swinging blade? Thus p factor is yawing you to the right?
Am I out in left field?

It is an interesting thought! But as contactflying points out, I am just reducing the load of the wing, and still producing positive AoA. Also I reduce throttle, to not build too much speed when the noes begins to come down.

It has been a busy week at work, but I will go fly again coming sunday. I will try to film from inside the cockpit to show what is going on. I am certain it is that either my timing is off, or that I am tensing up and making unconsious inputs.

Maybe I should also find another place to practice. So far I have used an area down in a deep and wide valley. When doing most manouvres here, my field of vision is just mountainsides. I dont feel like I am disoriented, I have my spots in the terrain I use for aiming. But it would probably help if I had more of an horizon. I know it sounds sketchy, but the valley is deep and wide enough to link 180 turns many times over from one side of the valley to the other. We used this area a lot in training, but for this it might not be the most suitable.

In the all about getting up or getting down of high altitude orientation, trim is a big thing. In maneuvering flight, we want a natural feel so as to understand what the airplane wants to do. I had a Tri-Pacer with messed up trim. The small cable from the crank in the roof to the jack that moved the front of the horizontal stabilizer up or down got jammed. I went back to the tail and moved the jack by hand to neutral trim and just left it there. KISS.

I have been toying a bit with trimming it out when in cruise, letting go the stick and use slight adjustments of throttle instead. Not of major relevance here, but a fun thing to play with.

Because you are too slow too banked, and too powered up for a lazy 8, you are in a 'crop duster' mindset but not turning like one.

You are powering your way through the lazy 8.

Your ball can't see right or left, it only wants to give you information on staying centered up. When you are powering your way through anything that requires more reaction to the left turning tendencies. It is quite common to use the throttle to turn when towing a very big sign (banner tow) and a right turn (not a normal banner tow turn direction) often requires throttle modulation and accepting a little decent.

When you are that slow, steep, and pulling, you are falling right, but your ball understands that you are yawing left.

And then there are the overbanking tendencies with a lazy 8....

It's an excellent maneuver because it teaches you to slow up to turn around, rather than pull your way around, and that is where the rubber meets the road in energy management.


Take care, Rob

Do not underestimate that little 100 horse powerplant. It motivates your light craft well in all directions.
Even the lowly A65 gave the Taylorcraft 'real' engine effects and side effects. You're power to weight ratio is undoubtedly quite more impressive.

Maybe a little Dunning, or a Lotta Kruger

Take care, Rob

Goes without saying but I’ll say it annyway, all you need to know is in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, and ACS. It’s all there. A well-versed CFI on both, should immediately identify any missing elements.

As Rob says, slowing up and letting the airplane help you turn rather than pulling is the key. ACS, with its many numbers, implies that you should pull to get to the heading number or to the altitude number or to the airspeed number. While this may be correct on paper, the airplane may not agree with you. Yes, the PIC is in control. He should not, however, get the big head. Rather he should listen to what Wolfgang says about listening to the airplane. Lots of us who have worn airplanes daily know this. Making the numbers match the test standards is meeting minimum standards, but it is not wearing the airplane. Flying by reference to instruments allows the pilot to be right, but not always to feel right. Engine failure at Vx or even at Vy at 300' AGL does not make the pilot feel like the outcome of the maneuver is never in doubt. And neither Wolfgang nor the airplane agree with that awful pitch attitude and airspeed position, regardless of the test number. Coordination of aileron and rudder should solve adverse yaw, but the airplane and I both know I need to lead rudder. It will certainly help by wanting the nose to go down (it just failed the test) to save my butt, but I have to help with the adverse yaw problem in a human nature fix way. Why do Rob, Wolfgang, me, and any tractor airplane fail Airmen Certification Standards?

Rob wrote:Because you are too slow too banked, and too powered up for a lazy 8, you are in a 'crop duster' mindset but not turning like one.

Thanks. Appreciate it! I think you are on to something. I was reducing throttle a bit, but it feels like something in the back of my mind admits guilty to leaving quite a bit of power on because it felt safer for some reason. Think I am going to pull less, bank less, and throttle down and see what happens. It felt better when I started doing them, and did them slower and more careful. When I got a bit excited and wanted to do them with more vigor, then it went a bit south.

48Stinson1083 wrote:Goes without saying but I’ll say it annyway, all you need to know is in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, and ACS. It’s all there. A well-versed CFI on both, should immediately identify any missing elements.

I am glad you still said it, because I am a light sport pilot over in Norway, and we dont have the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook here. Will read! Thanks!

Rob was saying power at slow airspeed and high pitch angle might be messing with you. He didn't mean shut the power down. It is part of the energy management package, along with zoom reserve airspeed and traded for altitude and potential energy of altitude traded for airspeed. The airplane will help you with all that. Just let it help.

Get up high over a river. Notice that the river turns up ahead. Before that turn, pitch up just a bit if a small turn and just a little more if a medium turn ahead. Now lead rudder and aileron to bank toward the new direction of the river, the new target. Release all back pressure to allow the airplane to do what it will naturally do. It will drop its nose onto the river in the new direction. This will give you a feel for the energy management turn without a lot of pitch attitude and slow airspeed.

In the Turn Smart video, the cowboy Ag pilot is doing it right but he is finding the razor's edge. If he is loaded, he is not, or if he messes up, it will kill him. We are not looking for the razor's edge in Ag work and we certainly don't want you to find it. The shallow to medium banked energy management teaches very much as well as does the back to back return to target of Ag work. Even Ag, with GPS now, uses the race track because it is safer. Only when the strong crosswind makes the downwind turn of the race track dangerous do the go back to the old back to back we had to use with the man on the ground flagman or even the automatic flagman that threw a long run of paper.

The chandelle and lazy eight are safe enough at altitude, but are not used in maneuvering flight. And they now teach different objectives than when developed by the military. Like everything ACS, they are now finding numbers and altitude by reference to numbers. They don't even talk about allowing the nose to fall through naturally at the 90 degree point as we do with the energy management turn and as we used to do with the lazy eight.

Your glider friends can help you with a lot of this, just don't pull power in a high pitch attitude and stall.