Ok, for all of the CFI's out there, I am doing my instrument training right now and was talking to my instructor about logging actual IFR for time spent in the clouds instead of simulated time under the hood. The chief flight instructor for the school said that because I am not instrument rated yet I can't log actual IFR but I can't find anything like that in the regs. I looked at FAR 61.51 paragraph g and it just says that flight time that the aircraft is operated solely by reference to the instruments. So, what say you guys?

Student BCP wrote:Ok, for all of the CFI's out there, I am doing my instrument training right now and was talking to my instructor about logging actual IFR for time spent in the clouds instead of simulated time under the hood. The chief flight instructor for the school said that because I am not instrument rated yet I can't log actual IFR but I can't find anything like that in the regs. I looked at FAR 61.51 paragraph g and it just says that flight time that the aircraft is operated solely by reference to the instruments. So, what say you guys?

Well, I believe if you are in the soup on a flight plan with an Instructor, it would be actual/duel. As opposed to simulated/hood duel. Is that the right "duel"?

Just my .02. C ya, Bub

Student BCP,

My CFI is rather rusty, but having spent nearly all of my time in the sunny Southwest, my 0.5 hrs. of actual IFR was logged while still working on my rating and the instructor signed off on it. Pretty tough to stay current down here! I have a bit more actual than my logbook shows, but I wasn't PIC when I flew it. Used to fly a 58 Baron into Montgomery Field in San Diego through the marine layer a couple of times a week over two summers. You go through that so fast it is a bit tough to figure out how to log it. But it sure was fun! That 58 had all the bells and whistles for flying the gauges.

Jim

Student,

As you noted, the FAR permits you to log as PIC that time for which you are the sole manipulator of the controls. That is a different question than whether you can log actual or simulated, though. You are supposed to log the conditions (actual, simulated, etc.) associated with the instrument time. If you are PIC, as in the sole manipulator of the controls, in an airplane for which you are rated (category and class--ie: Airplane, Single Engine) and you are in actual IMC, then you log it as actual. If you're under the hood, it's logged as Simulated.

Your flight instructor may ALSO log this flight time as PIC, and also may log actual.

You do NOT have to be instrument rated to log actual instrument time, or to fly in actual IMC, but there does have to be SOMEONE aboard at the controls who is an instrument rated instructor.

Here's another similar example: Let's say you are a Private Pilot, Single Engine Land rated. You are working on commercial maneuvers, so you rent a Cessna 182 R, a complex aircraft. You don't have a complex endorsement yet, nor do you have a high performance endorsement. Nonetheless, the FAA Chief Legal Counsel says you can legally LOG your flight time with an appropriatetly rated CFI in that airplane as PIC. The logic is that you are RATED FOR AIRPLANE, SINGLE ENGINE LAND and that's what you're in. You can LOG PIC in that airplane, but until you are endorsed to serve as PIC, you cannot SERVE as PIC.

Confused yet?

MTV

What Mike said.

In addition to MTV's complex/hi-performance example, the same scenario/ruling applies to tailwheel airplanes. I just learned this from my FAA contact while giving dual for the last tailwheel endorsement I signed.

Matt

Hiched a ride with a Delta pilot. He lived in Ashland Oregon and comuted to Salt Lake City in his 310 for when he was scheduled to fly. He was also a CFII.

I was a PP only. No high performance, instrument, twin or complex. He let me fly right seat in IMC and he stayed off the controles. He signed my logbook for 2.5 hrs accual ifr, complex and twin. I was a wreck after 2.5 so I gave it back to him.

Tim

Correct, this answer came from a Chief Legal Counsel's determination in regards to logging of PIC time in a complex aircraft. The arguement is, however, that you are logging time in an aircraft for which you are rated. Same logic applies to a tailwheel aircraft.

Now, on the other hand, if you are single engine land rated, and you are taking dual instruction in a single engine seaplane, you may NOT log that time as PIC (until you are appropriately rated) because it is an airplane for which you are not rated (ie: ASES).

MTV

Thanks for the replies. That was pretty much how I was interpreting it but when the chief CFI said I couldn't it kinda threw me for a loop. I was also thinking about calling the local FSDO and asking them. But anyway thanks.