Curious what others think on this issue. I have a friend who has had his private pilot certificate for the last year. He did all of his training in the Port Townsend area with a top notch instructor. He has about 130 hours total time now and wants to fly into the Idaho backcountry. He purchased a C182 with an O-520 about 6 months ago and has about 30 hours total time in it. I have flown with him a couple of times and he seems sharp for being a new time pilot. He moved to Great Falls a year ago and has been flying to places such as Bozeman and Helena regularly but not to any of the Montana backcountry strips. He would have flown more but the area has seen a ton of T storms this Spring and early Summer. Next weekend looks like a good weekend weather wise and we were planning on meeting in Idaho. Should I be concerned with him flying to Idaho with so little experience. I was going to meet him at Garden Valley and fly with him into Johnson Creek. I hold a CFI but don't instruct regularly. I am mountain proficient but am new to flying in the Idaho backcountry. I guess I want to know if this seems safe to others. I am not going to take him into anything too difficult - Stanley, Smiley Creek, Johnson Creek, and Big Creek as possible other places to go. Should he have formal instruction before doing this?

Dog is my Copilot wrote:Should he have formal instruction before doing this?

Yeah, I'm a big fan of getting mountain specific training before doing these kinds of things. So, yes.

130 total time and 30 hrs in type?...I'm not sure you'd even find a backcountry instructor that would fly with him. If you can find one that will, great. If he's a good stick with sound fundamentals, a day in the front-country with a hesitant mountain flying instructor might be enough to get them to take him backcountry, and that'd be time and money well spent. Otherwise I think it's a poor decision.

The sight picture of mountain flying is SO much different than front-country flying that those 130 hours are worth very little in that environment. Bozeman and Helena have some altitude, but that isn't even 1% of backcountry flying. Every year pilots with a LOT more hours than that, flying higher performance aircraft, manage to crash off the end of 4,000 foot long strips on landing.

So in getting his PPL he got several hours of hood time...would you feel OK about him flying "light IFR"?

The backcountry will be there next year, too.

If he ends up out here watch him close

It’s always a good idea to get specific instruction before doing something new. However, it’s not always possible. I got into flying specifically to fly the Idaho backcountry. My PPL instructor knew this and gave me a good start during my primary training. After that no instructor would fly with me in my plane to any mountain strip. It was too low of time with not enough airplane. I studied books, talked about the backcountry to anyone that would listen and practiced what I could learn from the books. I was a poor college student so renting a plane and instructor to fly the backcountry wasn’t an option. I was also young and dumb with not much to lose. 6 months after earning my PPL and with 80hrs in my log book I ventured to what I thought were the easier strips. I didn’t die.

Since your buddy flies a C182 I’d recommend he call Pete Nelson at Middle Fork Aviation and ask him for some instruction on flying the backcountry. Stop in Challis for a day with Pete then meet up at Johnson Creek afterwards.

Dog is my Copilot wrote:Curious what others think on this issue. I have a friend who has had his private pilot certificate for the last year. He did all of his training in the Port Townsend area with a top notch instructor. He has about 130 hours total time now and wants to fly into the Idaho backcountry. He purchased a C182 with an O-520 about 6 months ago and has about 30 hours total time in it. I have flown with him a couple of times and he seems sharp for being a new time pilot. He moved to Great Falls a year ago and has been flying to places such as Bozeman and Helena regularly but not to any of the Montana backcountry strips. He would have flown more but the area has seen a ton of T storms this Spring and early Summer. Next weekend looks like a good weekend weather wise and we were planning on meeting in Idaho. Should I be concerned with him flying to Idaho with so little experience. I was going to meet him at Garden Valley and fly with him into Johnson Creek. I hold a CFI but don't instruct regularly. I am mountain proficient but am new to flying in the Idaho backcountry. I guess I want to know if this seems safe to others. I am not going to take him into anything too difficult - Stanley, Smiley Creek, Johnson Creek, and Big Creek as possible other places to go. Should he have formal instruction before doing this?

Big engine 182 and you in there as a competent instructor seems safe enough to me. From your post I get the impression you know what your limitations are, if you’re comfortable with doing the bigger strips with him I say go for it.


Go light, go early, and have fun!

Instruction with a CFI familiar with the area would be VERY valuable.

I don't know about the mountain flight schools. Several pilots I talked to out in Colorado didn't seem to think much of them. Going through a course probably wouldn't hurt, though.

I find myself ignoring a pilot's total time, or at least not basing my decisions on it. The first time in the mountains is the first time in the mountains regardless of hours, IMO. It can give you a general idea of a pilot's experience, but can be very misleading.

I like to ooze into things. My first trip into the mountains was into La Garita with my 150hp C-172. I was given plenty of advice and things went pretty well.

I hope to gradually do more and more, like a kid learning to swim by slowly moving into the deeper end of the pool. Like Hammer said, there is always next year.

Anyway, just my thoughts as a relatively low time pilot who is venturing more into the backcountry.

I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject. My friend bought the C182 because he is an avid fly fisherman and his interests obviously are in backcountry flying. I got him hooked up with Pete Nelson at middle fork aviation. Someone PM'd his name to me (thank you). Pete said he would have time train him this summer. I am thinking now of taking him to Cavanaugh Bay instead. It is going to be really hot in Garden Valley this weekend 90-95F. Not probably a great time to do training in the mountains even if were up early. Anyway, I definitely want to ease him into the mountain flying experience. We all had 130 hours at one point in our flying careers and the only way to get experience is to do it, but I agree being cautious with some good instruction makes sense.

The very beginning of my first logged instruction was in the Idaho backcountry while radio tracking large felines as (barely) a teen working for the U of Idaho out of Taylor. Instruction in the area matters, and after I got my first ticket as an older teen I spent many trips during high school in my little ragwing Piper starting at maybe 50-60 hours tops running around to places like Chamberlain, Moose, and Cold Meadows before venturing to all the other strips thereafter. I don't know many who would proclaim those handful of strips as much different than any of their home airports except for the strip surface conditions, local weather & winds, and density altitude, particularly with the benefit of a couple hours of familiarity with instruction. Idaho has unique, great places to visit for lower time pilots to get acquainted. We've all run into them there, starting their new traditions and looking to explore deeper. Frankly, the helicopter salvage ops seem to more often involve a lot more experienced flyers getting ahead of themselves. Low timers can have a great time safely there.

lesuther wrote:The very beginning of my first logged instruction was in the Idaho backcountry while radio tracking large felines as (barely) a teen working for the U of Idaho out of Taylor. Instruction in the area matters, and after I got my first ticket as an older teen I spent many trips during high school in my little ragwing Piper starting at maybe 50-60 hours tops running around to places like Chamberlain, Moose, and Cold Meadows before venturing to all the other strips thereafter. I don't know many who would proclaim those handful of strips as much different than any of their home airports except for the strip surface conditions, local weather & winds, and density altitude, particularly with the benefit of a couple hours of familiarity with instruction. Idaho has unique, great places to visit for lower time pilots to get acquainted. We've all run into them there, starting their new traditions and looking to explore deeper. Frankly, the helicopter salvage ops seem to more often involve a lot more experienced flyers getting ahead of themselves. Low timers can have a great time safely there.

Agree completely.

BTW when were u at U of I?
Did u work w Hornocker?
I was studying salmon spawning in early 90s there.

Well, I am going to be a smart ass here!!
From reading 6 pages of the rules of the road in Idaho Bakcountry, Do not do any go arounds, If you land at a strip, do not just take off again, you need to get out and at least look like you are thinking about what you just did before you leave, and make sure you don't fly into to many?? (not sure how many that is!!) or you will be accused of Strip Bagging! Do not do it early as you might piss some one off who is having coffee late, Do not do it later as it might not be safe, Not sure where that 10 minutes is that is perfect?? Your call on that one!
And this guy with only 130 hours and piloting a 520 powered 182??!! Why he is a danger to all and needs to do at least another 400 hoours of touch and goes on a 4000' paved runway before he will ever be proficient in the IDAHO BACKCOUNTRY!!

Now if you just want a straight answer from me I would say go for it and enjoy, take a few easy ones first and see how it goes!! Be safe and enjoy!! They are public strips and open for everyone to use!

Whats funny is there still is a kid, he is a little older know, who had a students permit landed in his 150 amongst all those big STOL AIRCRAFT WITH BIG TARS AND ALL, stopped and said boy this is great, I sure do love to fly, jumped back in his 150 and flew to the next place!! Hope he is still smiling! Was great fun to watch him! And listen to all the comments on how stupid, dumb and unsafe he was!! I think it was all the humility of seeing the 150 on the BC strip precisely flown by a beginner who had more skill than any of us!!

Sierra Victor wrote:when were u at U of I?Did u work w Hornocker?I was studying salmon spawning in early 90s there.

I never attended the U of I- I wasn't old enough. I was employed by them for four seasons from '82-'85 (summers and one spring break) on Koehler's bobcat, cougar, and coyote survey project. Maurice H. was his grad advisor. Most of the gear I used was Hornocker's and Wilbur Wiles' (pack, radio, climbing spurs, skis, skins, etc), and I stayed in Dave Lewis' place. We flew every other week or so to make sure the critters were at the areas we were headed to on foot to study up closer. One of Ray's pilots liked to teach as long as things weren't too exciting to do it productively or safely. It got me well beyond hooked on flying in the Idaho backcountry.

Studying salmon in Big Creek? We used to treat seeing them as a real event...pretty rare back then, with all those dams and all. They'd rest against my shins at times when I was fishing and were so tired I could reach into the water to touch them.

Some pilots have good depth perception and an instinctive feel for power and pitch which is essential for backcountry no go-around strips.

Some don’t....and total time is not necessarily determinative.

Canyon flying is not “mountain flying”. Flying into smiley creek is wholly different than flying into Thomas or mahoney creek.....let alone cabin or lower loon.

There are lots of starter strips. Get used to hugging the hills before going in deep.

You got one chance to do it right. Get instruction.

Idahomike wrote:Some pilots have good depth perception and an instinctive feel for power and pitch which is essential for backcountry no go-around strips.

Some don’t....and total time is not necessarily determinative.

Canyon flying is not “mountain flying”. Flying into smiley creek is wholly different than flying into Thomas or mahoney creek.....let alone cabin or lower loon.

There are lots of starter strips. Get used to hugging the hills before going in deep.

You got one chance to do it right. Get instruction.

What Idahomike said. And get used to flying slow. Are we not paying attention to the incident and accident that happened last month at Dewey Moore?

M6RV6 wrote:Well, I am going to be a smart ass here!!
From reading 6 pages of the rules of the road in Idaho Bakcountry, Do not do any go arounds, If you land at a strip, do not just take off again, you need to get out and at least look like you are thinking about what you just did before you leave, and make sure you don't fly into to many?? (not sure how many that is!!) or you will be accused of Strip Bagging! Do not do it early as you might piss some one off who is having coffee late, Do not do it later as it might not be safe, Not sure where that 10 minutes is that is perfect?? Your call on that one!
And this guy with only 130 hours and piloting a 520 powered 182??!! Why he is a danger to all and needs to do at least another 400 hoours of touch and goes on a 4000' paved runway before he will ever be proficient in the IDAHO BACKCOUNTRY!!

Now if you just want a straight answer from me I would say go for it and enjoy, take a few easy ones first and see how it goes!! Be safe and enjoy!! They are public strips and open for everyone to use!

Whats funny is there still is a kid, he is a little older know, who had a students permit landed in his 150 amongst all those big STOL AIRCRAFT WITH BIG TARS AND ALL, stopped and said boy this is great, I sure do love to fly, jumped back in his 150 and flew to the next place!! Hope he is still smiling! Was great fun to watch him! And listen to all the comments on how stupid, dumb and unsafe he was!! I think it was all the humility of seeing the 150 on the BC strip precisely flown by a beginner who had more skill than any of us!!

Awesome post! And lots of truth.

Yeah, get instruction if you can. Doesn’t have to be the bank breaking type. Just get someone that knows what they are doing and can give you the basics. Then start small and “easy”, then slowly work your way up in difficulty...remembering that every strip has a way to kill you.

Idahomike wrote:Some pilots have good depth perception and an instinctive feel for power and pitch which is essential for backcountry no go-around strips.

Some don’t....and total time is not necessarily determinative.

Canyon flying is not “mountain flying”.

That is just an excellent point IdahoMike, (but you should have put it in caps, it's that profound) one that I had never heard verbalized quite like you did. You can be a mountain top/side landing pilot skilled in off airport "work", but the first time you drop down into one of those canyons, it's a different experience for sure. The closet other type flying to prepare one for canyon flying may be a narrow river gravel bar landing, when you get below the treeline, and if the bar is one way like a lot of the canyons.

In my own case, when I started flying the Frank, I had the thought "hell, how hard could it be....it's listed on the frigging sectional?" I had already been doing years of "mountain work", mostly one offs, never been landed before, LOTS shorter, steeper, and higher, with no youtube videos to help out, so I thought I had been there/done that, and besides these canyon strips were on the sectional! It's largely a mental thing but there nonetheless, it messes with your head at first, so for those just starting out be prepared for it!

For the folks who want to get started!

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2018/july/02/idahos-premier-backcountry-base?utm_source=travelpilot&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=180708travel

If you’re just getting started with backcountry flying, you might wet your feet first at Garden Valley, but Johnson Creek’s location, deep in the central Idaho mountains, makes it the perfect launching point for further adventures, or breakfast at places like Sulphur Creek, Dixie, Smiley Creek, or Flying B. Don’t fly to Idaho without the Idaho Aeronautical Chart, which shows all the strips you won’t find on the sectional, plus the two-volume Fly Idaho! Third Edition, which provides essential information and photos of 83 airstrips.

Swingle's primer for Johnson Creek is one of my favs:

https://vimeo.com/78356287

Total flight time is a very poor indicator of a pilot's skill levels. Unfortunately, it's the metric that is most used, and as a result, there is a lot of poor recommendations out there.

I've flown with pilots who had less than 200 hours TT who I would have no problem at all sending into the Idaho back country. I've also flown with folks who have a few thousand hours that I would NOT recommend going there, at least without some very specific training.

One thing I would NOT do is discourage someone from going there if they really want to. But, my recommendation would be as others have noted, get some dual in that kind of country, enter with an abundance of caution, and start with the really big and easiest strips out there.. Leave the Big Creek Four for those other folks.

Take it a step at a time and if you're not comfortable at any point, stop and do somethng different.

MTV

I would be a little reluctant if he has not been into Benchmark, Schafer, Meadow Creek etc. which are all very close and similar strips. Bozeman and Helena don't even compare. I think if he thought he was capable he would have hit these strips already as they are just a short hop from Great Falls.