denalipilot wrote:What I want to know is how many of you drain your hot oil at the end of the day and keep it warm on the woodstove overnight in a metal Blazo can

-DP

Why, doesn't everybody do that?

Personally, I keep it in a plastic jug at the bottom of my sleeping bag. Just have to remember which one is the pee bottle in the middle of the night!

I guess that'd change the viscosity a bit.

That is an old trick used in the day when most bush airplanes were equipped with radial engines.

Radial engines have dry oil sumps, and separate oil tanks. The oil tank was often back in teh passenger compartment, for example. This made trying to heat the engine AND the oil next to impossible.

Those folks would drain the oil out of the tank in the PM, take it into the road house, put it behind the wood stove in the road house, and in the AM, they'd get up, fire pot their engine, then dump that warm oil into the tank, fire up the engine and go.

No need these days with engines with wet sumps, since the oil and engine are in the same place.

MTV

mtv wrote:That is an old trick used in the day when most bush airplanes were equipped with radial engines.
No need these days with engines with wet sumps, since the oil and engine are in the same place.

We used to stove heat the oil in the Cubs and Cessnas if cold camping or stuck overnight at a village strip with no electricity, and still do on rare occasion. With a quick-drain it's easy to do, and it puts a nice gentle heat right in the middle of the cold case and under the crank. Moisture is not a problem if you're gonna be fired up and flying soon.

As for pre-heat "rules" we lived by, it was anytime below 40F, and if at all possible, cabin heat too to get the gyros warmed up. In the winter months the cabin/engine heaters were plugged in every night at the end of the flying day, with engine covers on, and a blanket over the glareshield to keep the heat under the panel. A caveat though, these airplanes flew a couple hundred hours a month, and didn't sit still long enough for moisture to do any damage.

Gump

I had a 1000W Honda gen until it got stolen, If I remember right that thing weighed about 50 lbs or so.

It weighs 26 lbs. No, it is not stolen. I think the older ones were much heavier.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2GG&modelname=EU1000I&modelid=EU1000IAN
I have the 2000 and it is almost 47 lbs.

How many of you guys use a generator? I have been seriously thinking of going that route. Specifically the 2000 watt Honda. They are a couple hundred dollars more than the 1000 Watt and nearly twice the weight, but they have many more uses than the 1000W. I'm flying a 7AC-CONV Champ with an O-235. I really hate the weight of it but I am scared of anything with a flame. Had two fires growing up on a farm (Machine shed with all out farm equiptment and a chicken house) and I know how fast something can be burnt to the ground.

I can't afford to buy a 1000W and a 2000W and would like this for other uses also. I have a hanger at my place and plug the plane in every morning a few hours before I plan on flying so would only need to carry this generator on a fishing trip or when I am going RON someplace.
Only thing holding me back is the weight. I am guessing with that and the rest of the winter survival gear, covers etc, I would be carrying around nearly 100 lbs of "stuff".
Comments?

Keith

Keith,

One more thing to consider: If the temps where you RON are pretty cold (as in around zero) the generators I've worked with (I have a Honda 1000 watt) won't start their own selves without some pre-heat to get them going. So, you almost need to lug that sucker inside somewhere with you over night, or at least get it warm for a little while to get it going, so you can THEN start to preheat the airplane.

Maybe other Honda generator owners can chime in here, but mine just won't start if it's zero, or maybe even a little warmer. It doesn't take much warming to get it started, though.

I'm with you regarding the weight as well. The 1000 watt Honda isn't too bad, but the 2000 is pretty big.

Finally, it takes a good two hours to pre-heat from cold soaked on a cold day, using a generator and a Reiff or Tanis pre-heat system, compared to 45 to 60 minutes max for a flame type heater.

Look again at the Northern Companion. As I noted earlier, ANY combustion heater requires that you monitor the program at all times. No slippin off for a cuppa while waiting, but it's much faster, MUCH lighter, and they work fine. The NC also provides a vital piece of survival gear (stove to melt snow, cook, provide heat to YOU) so it does double duty.

On one remote moose census, we based in a tent camp on the north fork of the Huslia River for a week, with 7 airplanes. All but my airplane relied on a BIG Honda generator to get warmed in the AM. The "Heat Party" had to roll out at 5 AM, drag the monster generator down to the river on a sled (the generator lived in one of our tents, all of which had a wood stove) fire it up and pre-heat for three hours prior to daylight.

My airplane had one of the old Wham-O catalytics under the hood when done flying for the day. Next morning I got up, shut down the cat pulled covers and went flying. Temps were really cold on that one. We overnighted in Galena when done, then I went to FAI the next day. That day it was -58 for a high in Tanana. -60 at engine start in GAL that morning. I was a lot younger and a lot dumber in those days, but that little catalytic heater would do the job, with little risk of fire. Unfortunately, those little heaters are near impossible to find these days.

MTV

Thanks for the info Mike. Maybe I was just looking for a good excuse to get a Honda 2000W. Probably build myself something similar to the NC and avoid all the weight and hassle of the generator. I hadn't heard they were hard starting below Zero. That would definitely defeat the purpose.

I have been looking for one of those old Wham-O cat heaters for sometime. I got one of the bigger ones at a yard sale for a few bucks but it is too big to carrying around and would need a huge adapter to get it down to size where I could direct the heat into the cowling.

Guess I am getting older and wiser too....I sure as heck wouldn't even think of being out flying in -40-50 below temps. Too many broken bones and injuries makes me too stift to move much at that temp.

Keith

Dokmow wrote:It weighs 26 lbs. No, it is not stolen. I think the older ones were much heavier.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2GG&modelname=EU1000I&modelid=EU1000IAN
I have the 2000 and it is almost 47 lbs.

I'm not saying you stole it of course , I bought it for Desert Storm, so I'm sure it was heavier than the new ones. Heat takes an enourmous amount of power, the little Gen. would run a motor home AC, but would not run a coffe pot for example, so make sure you add up whatever load you think you need. Inductive load meters are plentiful, and will tell you the actual load. Then of course your flying around with a ventilated fuel tank inside of your airplane. Wouldn't bother me, but to some you would think it was a nuclear device.
Now if what your really wanting is something that will charge sat. phones, run a DVD player etc. AND heat your airplane, then go for it.
I speak form experience here, having a gen. set in the campsite adds a lot more "stuff" you want to carry, it's like having a flush toilet or something, it really changes things. Some can't live without one and some despise the noise. Even the little Honda, as quiet as they are are loud out in the middle of nowhere at night.
On edit, Mine always started easily, but it almost never saw real cold temps. I ran Mobil 1 oil in it though and never even had to change the plug in the fifteen or so years I had it. Extremely reliable, and I think would have out lived me if it hadn't been stolen.

http://www.reiffpreheat.com/product.htm

I have used the oil pad sump heaters in the past and I suppose they work okay if you plug them in the night before, but I think the reiff heat system does the most complete engine heat in the shortest amount of time. Using the turbo system. I can get my engine from 14° to around 60 in just a little over an hour, I use one of those point-and-shoot thermometers on the cylinders and sump before I decide to crank it up and never have to prime or anything it just fires right up. Of course I use a Honda generator. So I suppose if you're not into a generator or you do not have electricity you would have to use another option but it works the best for me.

The cylinders are designed to heat and cool really quickly. That's their job.

The outside of the oil pan is also exposed to the most heat.

With a Herman Nelson, I can get the cylinders and the outside of the oil pan well into operating range temps and the core of that engine, specifically the crank bearings and the camshaft, are still stone cold. It is worthy of note that the camshaft in Lycomings has NO bearings or bushings between it and the case. That's steel vs aluminum, with all the differential heating and cooling associated.

Heat it for a good while, then leave it covered to NORMALIZE the temps for 20 minutes or so. Don't get in so much of a hurry to get going. Your engine will thank you.

Don't get in a hurry. This engine heating process takes a while.

MTV

WWhunter wrote:How many of you guys use a generator? I have been seriously thinking of going that route. Specifically the 2000 watt Honda. They are a couple hundred dollars more than the 1000 Watt and nearly twice the weight, but they have many more uses than the 1000W.
Comments?

Keith

Scroll down this Honda PDF for a list of average wattage requirements:
http://www.honda.ca/HPower/_Global/File ... ors_En.pdf
I have a 1KW, two 2KW, and assorted 5, 6 and 7KW Hondas. The 1KW is pretty light. For instance, it will not run a household vacuum cleaner. Sometimes they seem to do a little better if you turn off the "Eco-Throttle" function.

I have a hanger at my place and plug the plane in every morning a few hours before I plan on flying so would only need to carry this generator on a fishing trip or when I am going RON someplace.

I appreciate your caution about open flames, but IMHO the essence of a Northern Companion is that you have it even when you didn't plan on needing it.

DP

The Honda 1000 will run a Tanis or Reiff preheat system. It will not run one of those systems AND a small fan forced heater as well.

I figure when it's cold (-10 or so) it will take a Honda 1000 a good two and a half to three hours to adequately warm my engine.

Operative word being ADEQUATELY. I use the oil temp gauge to judge that, and common sense, not a point and shoot thermometer, which simply measures surface temp of the metal.

MTV

Of course you realise your oil temp gauge is probably not measuring oil temp because the sending unit is most likely in the engine case where the oil isn't. The oil is in the pan. If your being anal about it a point and shoot thermometer is actually pretty good if used correctly, but I would assume that somewhere around the four hour point the engine is pretty much as warm as it get's anyway, so what's the point? I assume because I don't have any cold wx experience in airplanes, just helicopters. Operationally we used Herman Nelson's and on testing, we didn't preheat.

a64,

You are generally correct, but my point was using a point and shoot thermometer on the cylinders, which are the first things to absorb heat, and the oil pan, which absorbs heat from the outside first, then saying, "okay, we're ready to go" after a quick one hour pre-heat may or may not get your engine warm enough.

The oil temp sensor isn't at the core of the engine either, but it also isn't firmly attached to a Reiff or Tanis heat pad either.....

In any case, my point was that AFTER you pre-heat, leave that engine cover on for a little while, and allow the engine temps to normalize.

My only point was that a quick pre-heat isn't necessarily a good thing, even with a Herman Nelson.

Also, pre-heating a turbine engine is a bit of a different problem than pre-heating a recip.

The take home message is: Take your time when pre-heating. Your engine will thank you in the long term.

MTV

Its only been to about ZERO here so far and the minimum I have had it plugged in before start up is 2 to 2.5 hours. Generally longer. I throw an old packing blanket over the cowl and it is usually pretty nice and warm when I have started it. I guess I should also start putting a heater in the cockpit. Those cushions with "Temper foam" are hard as a rock when its cold!!!
I think this was discussed on this site or a different site but....how long can a person keep the plane plugged in without any furute problems? For instance...I plug it in and plan to go flying one day...well the weather turns to shit and I can't fly. I beleive it isn't a good idea to unplug it and wait for another day so I would like to keep it plugged in. But the way the weather has been lately that may end up being a week or longer. Should I just unplug it and not worry?
Keith

as far as the heating of my plane i totally understand that you cannot heat an airplane in five minutes I was just making the observation that my engine temp , and yes I understand that it is on the outside .
but i think we can all agree that That metal conducts heat, and yes I understand that the internal parts of the engine are going to be colder. But by using my point and shoot thermometer all over the engine case, cylinders pan etc . If it is showing 75° . I am pretty sure the internal parts of my engine are going to be above freezing . And if the oil shows 140° for example. I am pretty sure it is going to flow, and I think everybody agrees, that is very important.

I think that a point and shoot thermometer is more accurate than numb fingers . I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion
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as far as leaving your plane plugged in, and this is just my opinion. I have read don't ask me where that if you are planning to fly your plane on a somewhat consistent basis. It is better to leave it plugged in.
Because your temperature is consistent over the long-term and tends to draw less moisture due to the consistent temperature of the engine. Then the amount of moisture drawn in, due to up and down heating and cooling of plugging it in. And then unplugging it.

Makes good sense to me I am sure this will generate many opinions, and/or arguments

Hey, point and shoot all you want.

My point is simply that all you are measuring with that thing is SURFACE temperature, not internal temperature, and you're measuring the parts that are quickest and easiest to heat.

It takes some time to pre-heat a cold soaked engine. It takes a long time for heat applied to the OUTSIDE of that thermal mass to reach the core of that mass, and the core is what you really should care about.. Bearings, crank and that bearing-less camshaft and followers will thank you kindly if you do an adequate job of preheating.

But, it's your engine, so make yourself happy.

How long does it take? Depends on OAT, size of engine, how much and what type heat, etc, etc.

If I were going to be for sure flying AT LEAST once a week, I'd leave it plugged in all the time. Consider that much of the moisture inside those engines comes from CHANGES in thermal regimes. If you maintain a relatively stable temperature level all the time, moisture will be less of a problem.

But, only if you fly regularly.

MTV