Backcountry Pilot

[Green Hornet offline]

Please keep in mind that I am a relatively low hour flat lander that is still learning how to fly & maintain my aircraft.
However after all is said and done I highly recommend this training even if you choose never to go it alone in the Mountains or Canyons. The course certainly brings to the forefront any personal deficiencies & or bad habits that one has acquired. I have only been a pilot for the past 5 years with 500 hrs.
In addition I have had a very tough time making the transition from a 90 HP Citabria to Maule 235 HP. This especially pertains to the landing consistency.
First and foremost I know that taking this seminar has increased my confidence level a tremendous amount when it comes to control and landing the aircraft. Note: I had VG's and Patroller doors installed a week prior to attending the class. The VG's IMHO is what this type of flying is all about slow flight, slow flight, slow flight. With out any question VG's offer more control at slow flight and I got feedback as to the installation from experts.
One of the huge benefits of this seminar is the inspection of the aircraft by the instructors. The instructor that did my inspection owns his own repair shop and informed me of key parts of preflight that no one or any checklist ever pointed out to me in the past paid for instruction. In addition he told me the cycling the PROP is not a good thing. The concept that cycling the prop gets oil circulating is a false premise. It is the governor that gets oil to the PROP and the cycling can damage the PROP.
There were many more little tidbits in this analysis and explanation of my methodology that were pointed out to me.
You will fly with a minimum of 4 instructors at least 9 hours or more. You are taught navigation in Canyons, how to traverse Mountains. How to analyze an airstrip for landing. I flew into airstrips of all degree's of difficulty. There are a few that the instructors will not take you into. All I can say is no problem because the one's I went into are enough for me right now.
Also discussed is what type of weather will kill you in the Mountains & or ruin your day. Also included is a ground school whereby you are given presentations on key concepts and a give and take discussion on personal limitations.
I know that I came out of this experience a better pilot especially in the flat lands. As for the mountain and Canyons that remains to be seen but with more training and experience I am certain I can achieve the goal in time. It is all about the repetitions and practicing what I learned until it becomes second nature. In that I chose not to go it alone this trip into Johnson Creek to the BCP/ Maule flyin. I sorely wanted to join everybody but I was concerned about the traffic and my ability after 4 days. I had been into JC only once on the first day There was a reported 60 airplanes at Johnson Creek. I am slow to tempt things that are over my head. I learned the the hard way. Almost drowned after an hour in a pool, scuba diving in Florida, Young & Dumb, suffered compressed fracture of vertebrae parachuting. Improper Preparation.
The McCall seminar offers advanced classes as well as individual lessons.
In addition I can practice what I have learned and it has given me the confidence to visit all the Mountain airports in California. They are a lot less intimidating then they used to be before McCall back country.
Every thing is relative to your individual experience but if you are considering more training this is an excellent course and worth the price of admission.
I did get to meet some of the BCP.org and put a face to a screen name at McCall. I look forward to the next opportunity to meet more of you.

[Zzz]

Since this topic was started as a report on McCall Mountain & Canyon Flying Seminar , but turned into a technical debate on prop cycling during runup, I split it off into a new thread. If you want to comment on the prop cycling issue, visit the new thread.

Any further discussion of McCall Mountain & Canyon Flying Seminar however is encouraged in this thread.

[mtv offline]

Zane,

Actually, the discussion regards prop cycling, etc, WAS related to McCall Mountain and Canyon Flying Seminars. That procedure was specifically taught by their "instructors who really aren't instructors", so the two are intrinsically tied together.

Lori's outfit has had more than their share of bad accidents this year. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for someone to penetrate that "our instructors will not serve as instructors" thing.....like the FAA or a smart attorney. In the meantime, insurance rates go up.

Anyway, doesn't make much difference in any case.

As always, be careful in accepting things that are presented via the internet, AND those presented during VERY expensive training programs, for that matter .

Mike

[Green Hornet offline]

Zane,

Actually, the discussion regards prop cycling, etc, WAS related to McCall Mountain and Canyon Flying Seminars. That procedure was specifically taught by their "instructors who really aren't instructors", so the two are intrinsically tied together.

Lori's outfit has had more than their share of bad accidents this year. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for someone to penetrate that "our instructors will not serve as instructors" thing.....like the FAA or a smart attorney. In the meantime, insurance rates go up.

Anyway, doesn't make much difference in any case.

As always, be careful in accepting things that are presented via the internet, AND those presented during VERY expensive training programs, for that matter .

Mike

Mike,
You are correct as to the prop cycling , etc being part of McCall Mountain and Flying Flying seminar course of instruction.
However I have to say that they are instructors!
Day One
Flying the stabilized approach,
Aircraft inspections
emergency Canyon turn
Day Two
Dual flight Instruction Review of aircraft Performance
Density altitude and aircraft performance
Navigation in Mountain and Canyon areas
landing Areas1
Day three
Dual flight instruction
Landing area 2
Moutain and Canyon meterology
Flying The Mountains and Canyons
Day Four
Dual Flight Instruction Emergencies, SAR, Survvial, Kits
Emergency Operations
Land Lightly, Etiquette and courtesies

Considering that I knew enough about mountain flying to know I didn't know! they taught me a great deal of pertinent information.
Actually Wanabe, Alex, and myself shared the Southerly navigation (that Lori calls the happy navigation to JC) with Zane and Jr Cub Builder and informed them of the blinding sun coming over the mountains with the Northerly approach.

I found the instructors to be knowledgeable about all aspects of flying including the mechanical although my background made me question the Prop Cycle inputs hence the discussion for the past couple of days.
As for safety and care for fellow pilots these people are first rate. It was Lori who found the wife of last years flying accident after 4 days of all kinds of searching. While I was taking class my instructor and I flew over Mahoney to check on Tom D to see if he was getting assistance.
Can you find a less structured, cheaper, instruction? I would think so but that does not mean that Lori's school is bad or they don't know how to teach. On the contrary they take their pupils very seriously. In fact they are responsible for me making the decision not to go it alone into JC. If my only goal would have been to fly to JC I am sure I could have hired them or somebody else to spend 4 days toward that effort alone. Although that may have made me think I was a back country pilot that I am not yet close to being. I met people who constantly take a refresher course every time they go to idaho. I also met pilots who have taken Lori's class more than once and who have taken the advanced course.
In the final analysis pupils are at all levels of experience when they enter mountain flying instruction. The school does require minimums but students bring their own idiosyncrasies no matter what their experience. When they leave the course they still remain PIC and if they make bad choices it is not the fault of the school. A man or woman must know their own limitations and make decisions based on research and questions.

"our instructors will not serve as instructors" thing..
Would you please expand on this statement because I am not quite certain what the reference?

[58Skylane offline]

edit

[shortfielder offline]

Sojorrn

Nicely put

I have been through 2 of Loris' classes, basic, and advanced. Have flown with most of her instructors. Naturally, liked some better than others, but thought they all did a good job and were knowledgeable in regards to the subject at hand.

I highly recommend getting instruction from someone before doing this type of flying. I you don't have a qualified friend to get you started, I think one of these classes is an exc. place to start.

For me the basic class was instrumental. Maybe could have gotten by without the second(advanced), but it reallly helped things to jell. I feel that it added years and a huge about of safety and confidence to my backcountry flying. Who knows how long in would have taken be to get to the level that I am at (and I know I still have a lot to learn, but atleast I can have fun, and be safe), and possably how much damage I could have done to myself, others, and my plane.

I feel that if you can't afford the advanced class, atleast go back for a few hours of dual, just as a refresher. Especially if you aren't doing this type of flying frequently.

There are several schools in the NW. I am sure they are all pretty good. I am only familiar with Loris', but also feels that she runs a class act, and is always open to comments, in an effort to improve what she is doing. I feel that she, and atleast most of her instructors are completely committed to what they are doing, and helping others like me to learn and enjoy this incredible experience in a safe manner.

Gary

[Zzz]

Actually, the discussion regards prop cycling, etc, WAS related to McCall Mountain and Canyon Flying Seminars.

Mike, you are right, and my intent is to organize information presented as discussion. I felt that the discussion became very heavily weighted toward one specific technical detail and would be better off as its own thread. It's still very evident in that thread what the genesis of the debate is. Any further discussion of the flying course though was derailed. Plus, people searching for information about prop cycling, etc, will more easily find it given the topic title.

[GumpAir offline]

As always, be careful in accepting things that are presented via the internet, AND those presented during VERY expensive training programs, for that matter .

Amen, although I don't know any of the folks at McCall, so it'd be unfair for me to comment on the quality of that specific program or it's instructors. But high dollar doesn't always equate into high quality. The world famous adventurer, self-proclaimed world record setter pilot, who disappeared in my neck of the woods last September is a prime example. Mother Nature can't be bullshitted by money and ego.

Gump

[skymaule offline]

Bill, I appreciate your report and thought it was very well written and thought out. I was asking others if they had seen you there at Johnson Creek. Your report explained why you were not there and I have a great deal of respect for your decision.

This was my first time at Johnson Creek and to be quite honest it was very intimidating. I was glad that I researched as much as I did prior to the trip, but once on the ground I was quite content to just sit for a few days. I fly for a living but not in that environment. It was humbling to know that I didn't even know what I didn't know about mountain flying. I did fly to McCall and schedule a morning with Lori. As it turned out, the weather was bad on Tuesday and that didn't work out.

Another pilot and his wife kinda took Kitty and I "under their wing" and we flew around with them. We ended up putting on ten hours out there and landed at 9 strips including Johnson Creek.

I will go back next year, and I will schedule some time with an instructor prior to my arrival. I wanna do it right and I wanna live!

Look forward to meeting you.

Mark

[Green Hornet offline]

Hi Mark,
The only regret I had in my decision was not meeting up with you and others who I have got to share my love for flying over the past years on this site.
I am certain that I will eventually meet one & all in good time. I am currently considering going up to Sandy, OR. ( OG29) for the flyin. I need to do a little more research on the strip but it appears to be a nice little grass strip and a really good, well organized event.
I might even talk Georgine (my better half) into the trip.
Thanks for asking after me and I too hope to meet you and Kitty some time in the not to distant future.
Fly Safe
Bill

[mtv offline]

Folks,

Sorry for the disconnect there. I too have heard a lot of good things about Lori's program. Unfortunately, their ventures in Utah this year haven't all gone real well. I hope that doesn't kill their program.

My reference to the instructors there was related to the "disclaimer" they apparently use, and, while I realize they are trying hard to minimize the liability of the instructors, I doubt that it will help much if a bad accident were to occur.

Anyway, many people speak very highly of the program, and I wish them all the best. It's a risky business trying to teach people to operate in the mountains, but I'm glad that there are those who are willing to do that job.

MTV

[jomac offline]

i personally have found lori's course's and her instructors to be nothin'
but aces. while there are differing personalities and such, lori is such
a good organizer, and at the same time cautious to keep all involved
safe as hell. how much are you worth...someone like myself with
a business of my own, which owns me, 2 or 3 kids in college, a ton of
commercial travel in the middle of it for work related purposes, and etc.
leaves my 700 or so hours, almost all in turbo fixed gear stuff, needing
a little help to play in such constricted places. having a history of a
family ranch on loon creek, it is natural for me to hang out in the frank-church and mccall. i find it hugely beneficial to fly with a lot of her different
instructors, as i know for a fact, a few of them don't need the $.
pretty cool when u can do it for other reasons, and i believe it makes
for great training. these people are not building hours to go to some
bankrupt airline job, been there done that.

without a doubt probably the best use, at least for a low-time pilot like
myself with a lot of obligations, of a couple thousand bucks. definitely
helped with my insurance rates as well...

jomac
c-182T '82

[onthegas offline]

without a doubt probably the best use, at least for a low-time pilot like
myself with a lot of obligations, of a couple thousand bucks. definitely
helped with my insurance rates as well...

jomac
c-182T '82

Try $3300 for the 4 day course. Seemed steep to me, especially after factoring in hotels, food and fuel. Am I wrong? I was really stoked to do it after I attended Lori's seminar on backcountry flying at the AOPA convention last week but a little thrown back at the cost.

[jomac offline]

for sure, otg, it was 2200 2 years ago. and i realize 3200 is a bunch of dough also. for me, i feel like it has saved me time,agony, and $ in
the long run. after both courses, i make far better choices as to where
and when to go or not go. i'm quite confident in my bird, and also that
i could stuff it about anywhere and walk away if needed...how much is
that or your cargo worth...with the write-off i still think it is a bargain.

maybe i'm biased, but when you've totaled an airplane before, it changes
the way u think...and for the better, at least for me.

u should consider just a day with them and then come to your own
conclusion. this months plane and pilot mag. has a good write up on
lori's course. it was also my first course there. the centerfold has my
182T leaving cabin creek...next to loon, one of my favorite places...

[whee offline]

I think I'll just save my money for gas, but I've heard good things about their courses.

Me too. I bet I could learn more by flying for $3300 worth in gas, which is almost 200 hours, then they could teach me in their course. Besides, they would just tell me 85hp ain't enought for the mountains.

[shortfielder offline]

You will spend a lot more than $3300.00 to learn what they will teach you in 4 days, if you are doing it on your own. They will teach you things that you probably aren't even aware of.

You don't need to get instruction from them, but anyone would be doing themselves a big favor to get some instrucion from someone,weather it's a friend with lots of good experience, (and you know where that comes from) for no charge, or a qualitied instructor for a fee.

Gary

[whee offline]

[quote"shortfielder"]You will spend a lot more than $3300.00 to learn what they will teach you in 4 days, if you are doing it on your own.[/quote]

I totally disagree. I'm sure there are things I'll never know unless I attend one of their seminars but I can live with that...I think

Good instruction is important but I hate these seminars that bring in a bunch of planes all doing repeated landing in wilderness areas. While at Indian Creek this past summer the planes started arriving as soon as it was light enough. Probly 5 planes landed before I even got out of bed, and I had to cook breakfast. I went up and talked to a few of the guys that stopped long enough to look around, the pilot were nice but the instructors wouldn't even say hi.

That is just my opinion. When I decide I need some real instruction I'll call Pete at Middlefork Aviation or someone else who has the flying style I like.

[mtv offline]

That brings up a great point---not everyone is cut out for a particular style of instructional program.

McCall's program may just be the cat's ass for some folks, and offend others. My style might be great to some, and terrible to others.

Before you sign up for ANY kind of training, do a little research and see what you can find out what the style of learning is, what the instructor is like, etc.

BUT, get some training, from someone who knows what they are doing.

MTV

[Green Hornet offline]

That brings up a great point---not everyone is cut out for a particular style of instructional program.

McCall's program may just be the cat's ass for some folks, and offend others. My style might be great to some, and terrible to others.

Before you sign up for ANY kind of training, do a little research and see what you can find out what the style of learning is, what the instructor is like, etc.

BUT, get some training, from someone who knows what they are doing.

MTV

Amen! Brother! Like Gump said Mother Nature can be unforgiving! Training style is subjective and there is no need to dismiss one over the other. I personally like a mix or a little of both. If I learned one thing error's are made at both ends of the bell curve and not so much in the middle. So inexperience or over confidence (complacencies) can mess up your entire day. Like MTV said get some training before attempting the unknown. and you experienced old timers keep preparing to dance on those rudder pedals (TW) and go through that check list.
FlySafe
Bill

[58Skylane offline]

Yeah, I'm going to have to stand behind Whee and some others on this subject. I'd much rather spend $3300.00 on fuel and a good instructor like Chris Butler and Darrein Hunt at Air O Drome in Caldwell (my friend JoeCub, too) and go to some of the more challenging airstrips.

Like I said before, though. I've heard plenty of good thing's about Lori's seminars, but I'm not going to spend $3300.00 on this course anytime soon.