Jaerl wrote:....If it is colder than 20 degrees outside the air won't hold water so you don't have to worry much unless it is snowing or there is visible moisture.

But if there's water in the fuel, bonded to the ethanol......??? One of my worries about E10.

I just had my 300 gallon bulk tank filled (and saved the receipt to get the road tax back next year), and as always the truck driver and I BS'd while watching the tank fill. He said in Idaho we should expect changes after 2012 concerning mandated ethanol, as in got to have it. He blames Sinclair Oil, and indicated all in the oil business "hate" Sinclair. Something to do with the way they throw their weight around to manipulate the local market.

A couple weeks ago the local PBS TV station ran its weekly show about Oregon, Outdoor Oregon or something like that. Anyway part of it was about the impact of ethanol fuel on the off roader's, which included mariners. Many professional mechanics told horror stories about it eating fuel system components, pitting aluminum carb bowls and other scary stuff. The ONLY bright spot was the postscript mentioning that premium straight gas was available at most marinas.

I was running straight Avgas in my Rotax for the first 40 hours after getting my plane built and flying. I have fiberglass fuel tanks and have heard nothing but horror stories about Ethanol and fiberglass tanks from the Marine crowd. As the price of Avgas continues to rise... $4.59 at my airport last week I started running Premium Chevron gas again. I ran into a guy the other day who works at one of the big refineries in the East Bay area and he too mentioned it was most likely around a 6% blend. I have not tested it in my area though. My biggest fear is my tanks. The rest of my fuel system is very accessible and easily replaceable. Time will tell I guess. I hate to word it this way but with a $1.30 difference per gallon on average I'm going to take my chances. It's either that or not fly nearly as much as I do.

Any opinions on running a blend of Avgas and Mogas? I've done that a few times. I wonder if it would null out the Ethanol to an acceptable level.

AvidFlyer wrote:I was running straight Avgas in my Rotax for the first 40 hours after getting my plane built and flying. I have fiberglass fuel tanks and have heard nothing but horror stories about Ethanol and fiberglass tanks from the Marine crowd. As the price of Avgas continues to rise... $4.59 at my airport last week I started running Premium Chevron gas again. I ran into a guy the other day who works at one of the big refineries in the East Bay area and he too mentioned it was most likely around a 6% blend. I have not tested it in my area though. My biggest fear is my tanks. The rest of my fuel system is very accessible and easily replaceable. Time will tell I guess. I hate to word it this way but with a $1.30 difference per gallon on average I'm going to take my chances. It's either that or not fly nearly as much as I do.

Any opinions on running a blend of Avgas and Mogas? I've done that a few times. I wonder if it would null out the Ethanol to an acceptable level.

AvidFlyer. Read this months EAA article on Rotax engines. The best fuel is non ethanol premium mogas. For the Rotax, 100LL is not as good as you might think. They talk about ethanol too.

My sister and her husband just moved back to where I was raised along the Chesapeake Bay. They took their old Boston Whaler boat with Mercury out board motor. It ran quite a bit of ethanol in Illinois and where they just moved is mandated 10%. I rode in the boat last August and it ran alright. I think the fuel tank is integral fiberglass as we took the cap off the top side of the boat to fill. Also, for the last 3 and 1/3 years I've been flying in 20 to 70 F temperatures(sometimes, next thing to fog) and haven't iced up. Here's knocking on wood. I always thought alcohol was an anti freeze. I think back in Model T days they added alcohol to the water but the problem was it boiled off. Also, I think the AGE 85 ethanol tests proved carb ice wasn't a problem in the O 470 UTS.

Read this months EAA article on Rotax engines. The best fuel is non ethanol premium mogas.

Didn't I read that 5% for sure and maybe 10% is approved by Rotax. I think Lockwood said that.

RobBurson wrote:

AvidFlyer wrote:I was running straight Avgas in my Rotax for the first 40 hours after getting my plane built and flying. I have fiberglass fuel tanks and have heard nothing but horror stories about Ethanol and fiberglass tanks from the Marine crowd. As the price of Avgas continues to rise... $4.59 at my airport last week I started running Premium Chevron gas again. I ran into a guy the other day who works at one of the big refineries in the East Bay area and he too mentioned it was most likely around a 6% blend. I have not tested it in my area though. My biggest fear is my tanks. The rest of my fuel system is very accessible and easily replaceable. Time will tell I guess. I hate to word it this way but with a $1.30 difference per gallon on average I'm going to take my chances. It's either that or not fly nearly as much as I do.

Any opinions on running a blend of Avgas and Mogas? I've done that a few times. I wonder if it would null out the Ethanol to an acceptable level.

AvidFlyer. Read this months EAA article on Rotax engines. The best fuel is non ethanol premium mogas. For the Rotax, 100LL is not as good as you might think. They talk about ethanol too.

For sure... I knew that. Lockwood said 100LL will not hurt it but the lead presents an issue with plugs and crank bearings. Non Ethanol gas does not exist in California to the best of my knowledge. My engine runs better on Premium pump gas. It's a trade off..... better gas at the risk my tanks breaking down or pretty good gas and no ethanol worries.

Avid, How old are your fiberglass tanks. If not too old you'd think they wouldn't be affected by that small amount of ethanol. That Boston Whaler is from back in the 80's.

patrol guy asked:

Question: Can the rain gauge with a measured amount of water and gas detect that small of a percentage??

plastic Orvil Redenbacker popcorn jar. About 6 inches tall by 2 inches square. Fill with water to the bottom line. Small lines above the water line are 3/16ths inch apart. Fill with gas on top of the water to the top line. Each line above the water line is 10%. This sample appears to contain about 5 or 6% moonshine.

After testing carefully poor the gas off the top into my lawn mower.

After reading this forum, I am very surprised that beer even stays in the can, seems like it should just go through it like paint thinner in a styrofoam cup.

180Marty wrote:Avid, How old are your fiberglass tanks. If not too old you'd think they wouldn't be affected by that small amount of ethanol. That Boston Whaler is from back in the 80's.

Marty, if you're going to continue dispensing pro-ethanol advice could you at least disclose what your interest in the stuff is in your signature block?

Avid, I hear you, California quackery has left no room for a guy trying to keep the operational expenses under control. In the absence of clean mogas the healthiest option is to run 100LL with TCP but that also happens to be the most expensive, annoying too that you have to spend additional money to use a fuel you don't want to begin with. Ethanol is vile stuff with few redeeming qualities - lower energy by volume, costlier to produce, and potentially corrosive under the right conditions. There's a reason it can't survive without subsidies. Use it in your kitfox and you will be truly be operating experimentally.

I just started flying my Vans RV-8 kit plane that I have been building for the last 2.5 years, and ran it today with 5 gallons of E-98 mixed in with 11 gallons of 100LL, or about 30 percent ethanol. E98 is the ethanol that the plants produce, before it is mixed with petroleum to make E-85 and other blends.

Watching my Dynon, the EGT came up about 125 degrees when I switched tanks from straight 100 to the mixed tank. When i brought the EGT back to the 100LL temp, the fuel flow had increased about a half a gallon. Tomorrow I will try out 50% ethanol.

Aside from the EGT and a slightly different exhaust smell on the ground, I couldn't tell the difference. I had my Bendix servo set up at Airflow performance, and by leaning, I can run anything from E98 to 100LL, or any mixture inbetween.

Just for comparison, E98 is about $1.50-2.00 a gallon.

Vick--maybe you should fill out your signature block so we know what makes you an expert.

Way to go Lance.

lancef53 wrote:Just for comparison, E98 is about $1.50-2.00 a gallon.

After you add what I am forced to contribute, what is the cost. The least you can do is thank me.

Tim

Tim, Was just talking to the manager of one of the ethanol plants I'm invested in a couple of days ago---he indicated that ethanol leaving the plant is less than $1.50. The plant doesn't get subsidies. Right now the oil companies are the main blenders, so they are getting the 46 cent a gallon blenders credit. Right now there is a glut of ethanol because evidently the oil companies bought up a bunch of RIN's a while back for next to nothing. RIN's(Renewable fuel Identification Number)go with batches of fuel after it is made. Oil companies that are obligated to blend ethanol can either blend the actual ethanol or buy RIN's. Manager said the ethanol industry should have bought up the RIN's when they were 1/2 cent a gallon or so---too late now.

I do not mind you guys in the production end of ethanol and promoting it. I think that is great.

My bitch is having to be forced to buy it. That means I am forced to buy somthing I do not want in all my motors. Everbody that is in the production line from the guy that spreads the fertilizer, the corn grower and all the way up the line is being partialy paid by me.

I am a plumber and it would be like a new law goes into effect that says all existing toilets have to be changed to a 1.2 gallon per flush style. Even though they will not flush a decent size turd, you still have to do it. Good for the plumber and wholesaler and the manufacturer but bad for the rest of you guys.

Tim

lancef53 wrote: Vick--maybe you should fill out your signature block so we know what makes you an expert.

I'm not an expert, my father was - a PhD in chemistry and 40+ years in the petroleum industry. I can't do justice to his technical and research-based explanations of the unsuitabilities of ethanol but I did understand that there's no getting around the laws of thermodynamics. I'll take scientific data over anecdotal success stories any day.

Regardless though, I share my opinions on ethanol without any financial interest in it. When Marty encourages a guy to use mogas w/ethanol based on a boat he knows of that didn't show any adverse effects, I think it's only fair that he also share that he stands to profit from the success of the industry.

Like qmdv, my beef is that I no longer have a choice about using it. 100LL is not only more expensive than mogas but it's also less desirable for the engines I operate, so I have to spend even more (on TCP) to bring the lead back to a manageable level. Insult to injury is that my mileage has gone down on the drive to the airport as a result of the mandated ethanol content in the fuel I put in my vehicles.

If ethanol is such a superior product it shouldn't need to be mandated, offer it and let the market decide. Unfortunately we're too far gone for that to happen, but news like this gives me some hope that the ethanol experiment will eventually be scrapped...

http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/re ... hanol.html

Vick, Ethanol plants are going bankrupt in many places, just like many businesses in almost every aspect of our society. Manufacturing, aircraft manufacturing, autos, you name it. That comparison really means nothing. I just saw on TV this morning that the local seminary school was closing because of costs. I think it is a state of the economy.

I don't like having things mandated either, but that is what our government decides. We could talk about social security, for one. Right now, they expect it to be bankrupt by 2037, unless they alter something. Just a hunch, but I bet they won't be cutting benefits to seniors. I was born in 1972, so a little quick math shows that I will be able to pay in all my life, and then recieve nothing. That is our system at work.

I am not an expert at ethanol, but it has been available and used here in North Dakota for as long as I have been driving, the mid 80's. I have had many types of two stroke and four stroke engines, and never had a failure due to ethanol. Maybe I am just the luckiest guy on earth, maybe my maintenance is better, I don't know. I do know that the shelf life of standard gasoline has gone way down, but that never seems to come up. I always use 100LL in my toys at the end of the season, so that they will have less problems starting up 6 or 8 months later for the new season, whether it is a dirt bike, snowmobile, or boat engine.

Good discussion, it is good to see all sides.

QMDV--I am not sure what the subsidy is.

Vick, since you know quite a bit about oil, you also know that there are many different hydro carbon molecules that comprise gasoline. Some are more desirable than others. Do you think the oil companies are going to make ethanol shine by adding it to the good ones or the less desirable ones. From 2001 to 2006, I had a flex fuel Taurus that I ran as much E85 as I could. I was going down to south Louisiana to fly a 185 floatplane about once a year and Kansas City was the last E85. The first time down I found my mileage really jumped up when I put Arkansas and Louisiana gas in. Anyway, on the later trips I decided to carry 5 gallon jugs of E85 in the trunk so I could at least have some percentage of ethanol for the whole trip. I was surprised that when I dumped in enough ethanol to make about 25% with that Arkansas gas I still got about the same mileage as previous trips with no ethanol. Not scientific but my real life experience. That's also why I tend to believe the test results of North Dakota when they found some cars did just as good on 30% as 0%---they used a Toyota Camry, a flex and non flex Impala and a Ford something or other.

Just like any other child, I detest being told what to do... That being said, this is for Avid and others with composite tanks. If your tanks are a tan/brownish color, you need to be very careful with the ethanol, You might even consider installing an additional inline filter that is easily accessable to monitor often, as this resin will shed pieces of goo after exposure to ethanol. The resin that is more of an eggshell color, (the white store-bought eggs!) is more likely to be ethanol resistant. If unsure, and if possible, there are tank liners available that are ethanol safe. Kreem is one brand but there are many. You can ususllyy find these at motorcycle retailers and catalog stores. The drawback is that they are a thick liquid that needs to be 'sloshed' which means removing the tanks, or in my case, the wings that have the tanks built into them. There is a solution, but it can be a pain to accomplish. The Jabiru factory tested and approved up to 15% ethanol in their (my) engines, but I have not tried it yet. I will soon, as gas prices rise again.

KB