I love watching these videos. I found myself cringing, laughing out loud, and just being amazed at the abuse the gear and tires can take on these airplanes.

It has been discussed here before, and I finally realize why the airlines typically teach crab to touchdown given the slow roll response that is seen here. The wing strikes would be plentiful if these heavy pilots were fighting crosswinds like these with a wing low approach.

Great HD footage.

I'll go ahead and post this here too just because its so cool and from the same youtube channel. Great illustration of what lift generation and wakes look like.

The skill level of these pilots are all over the map.

I give the most credit to the ones who recognized an unsafe and unstable approach and executed a Go Around as required in most, if not all of their operating manuals.

The airlines do not teach you to land with a crab, but to kick it out at the appropriate altitude depending upon the wind conditions. Even when doing an Autoland, the autopilot will kick out the crab and it usually does it extremely well.

Where is this and is it time to build a crosswind runway?

MAU MAU wrote:The airlines do not teach you to land with a crab, but to kick it out at the appropriate altitude depending upon the wind conditions. Even when doing an Autoland, the autopilot will kick out the crab and it usually does it extremely well.

Mau,

That's what I meant. I remembered from an earlier post that this was the preferred method over a wing low/forward slip.

Can you please explain how the autoland works? I mean, how much if any input is the pilot giving during an autoland? I know nothing of this crazyness!!

Wow! That's crazy. Where is this at? For the Airbus 320, until recently the crosswind component for our landing ops was 29G38. Now it's a straight 38 with gusts included. Takeoff is 29G31. I can tell you it will handle these with no problem. I'm curious what the winds were here because they sure seem to be well above the limits.

Crzyivan13 wrote:Can you please explain how the autoland works? I mean, how much if any input is the pilot giving during an autoland? I know nothing of this crazyness!!

I can only comment as to the A320, but there is ZERO input from the pilot during an autoland. Once you push the approach button, you're pretty much along for the ride and monitoring the aircraft. At 200' RA (radar altimeter), the First Officer calls "100 above". At 100' RA, the First Officer says "Alert" and starts looking for Flare to be annunciated on the Primary Flight Display. In the Flare Mode, the aircraft will align the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the runway and compensate for any x-wind, as well as pitch up. An audible "Retard" is announced queuing the Captain to retard the throttle, which, by the way, if he doesn't, the computer will do anyway. The captain must manually select reverse thrust if desired. The aircraft will continue to track centerline while autobraking using the localizer. The captain must remember to disengage the autopilot before trying to steer clear of the runway or it will continue to try to turn back to the localizer. And that's pretty much it. Depending on weight and crosswind (there is a lower limit...15 knts I believe), it normally does a really good job. It's amazing and a little unnerving to watch the first time you do a real one. Thereafter, it's pretty cool...and you're thankful you have the capability and aren't headed to your alternate...especially when trying to make your commute home!

That is amazing footage. The pilots are working for their pay on those landings. Scaling things down a little to our size of planes. The flight dynamics look similar to what we may experience at say 30kts. For large aircraft to be effected that way, the winds must be blowing over 50kts with some pretty substantial gusts and mechanical turbulence, judging by the intensity of the wing flex on some of the approaches. Id say some pretty challenging conditions for all of the pilots to get it on the ground safely.
Autoland seems to work extremely well. On a WJ flight some years ago with several stops, I was surprised on how well some of the landings were, until the last one at destination. The 737 hit the tarmac harder than usual sending a good shudder through the airframe. I met up with a WJ pilot at a later time and related that experience. he said that it was SOP to let the airplane do the landing, but the pilots were required to do manuals x times of the month. He finished with a smirk, saying the last landing you experienced was probably one of those required manuals.
Were gonna see a day soon when major carriers will be omitting the human component. Computers and software is at an age now that is becoming much more reliable, exceeding that of the human pilot. The cockpit will be removed and replaced. with a few more rows of paying seats. The computer will be entirely objective in it's mission to get you there with no risk of fatigue, psychological or personal problems that can compromise safety. It will have enormous data available to deal with strong crosswinds, wind sheer and unruly passengers.
I talked to an air cargo pilot once, and I asked him how he like his job. He said, all I do every night is sit in a dark hissing box. The aircraft does everything. I look at gauges and dials and stay awake and make sure nothing f**s up. I don't even get to land the damned airplane. I wonder why I'm even there.
In reality, "pilots" of flying buses have been reduced to flight managers and baby sitters , except the computers are catching up and now beginning to baby sitting the pilots. Soon the days of the, We too Low's at SF and the phyco Egypt air pilot who decided on taking his plane and pax to an early meeting with Alla and some 21 virgins in the Atlantic ocean will be a thing of the past. Even military pilots are gonna feel it. I was reading that the new f-35 would be the last piloted combat aircraft and could possibly be soon obsolete. Situational awareness, automated target acquisition systems as well as fire and forget makes taking a human along for the ride, pointless.
The last few years as seen an exponential leap in microprocessor power as well as complex algorithm and software capabilities with failsafe reliability. I think the predicted future demand for pilots is going to have a sharp drop off as modern automated flight control systems become implemented on a commercial scale.. This rambling powered by beer.

"This rambling powered by beer"

And I'm glad to say, there ain't no microprocessor for that shit.

Sidewinder - to call you clueless would be an insult to clueless people.

I would attempt to convey the intricacies of flying a transport category aircraft to you, but I feel most of it would go right over your head.

gptc wrote:Where is this and is it time to build a crosswind runway?

I believe it is Birmingham, UK

SW, I don't think the pilots you talked to gave you a very accurate picture of how much airmanship still takes place. Yes, autopilots do the lion's share of the enroute flying and, IMHO, don't get turned off enough further out from landing, but I can count on two hands the number of autolands I've done outside of the sim. Greater than 99% are hand flown.

I think it will be a long time, if ever, before we see airliners without pilots. Like I mentioned above, autopilots have limits and it takes experience to pick your way through weather. There is a lot of information that can be sensed and seen by being there that a computer, or a ground based pilot, wouldn't be able to perceive. They would also have a hard time managing system failures and in flight emergencies. Not to mention that the flying public would never go for it...especially after the first one wrecked or was hijacked via being hacked.

Grassstrippilot wrote:I can only comment as to the A320, but there is ZERO input from the pilot during an autoland. Once you push the approach button, you're pretty much along for the ride and monitoring the aircraft. At 200' RA (radar altimeter), the First Officer calls "100 above". At 100' RA, the First Officer says "Alert" and starts looking for Flare to be annunciated on the Primary Flight Display. In the Flare Mode, the aircraft will align the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the runway and compensate for any x-wind, as well as pitch up. An audible "Retard" is announced queuing the Captain to retard the throttle, which, by the way, if he doesn't, the computer will do anyway. The captain must manually select reverse thrust if desired. The aircraft will continue to track centerline while autobraking using the localizer. The captain must remember to disengage the autopilot before trying to steer clear of the runway or it will continue to try to turn back to the localizer. And that's pretty much it. Depending on weight and crosswind (there is a lower limit...15 knts I believe), it normally does a really good job. It's amazing and a little unnerving to watch the first time you do a real one. Thereafter, it's pretty cool...and you're thankful you have the capability and aren't headed to your alternate...especially when trying to make your commute home!

Thanks for the great explanation Cory. It's hard to believe that this is even possible. I guarantee that it would be extremely difficult to just let it happen. (I mean let the airplane fly itself to the ground.) Especially when we are taught from the beginning to never let the airplane control you, you control the airplane, and fly it all the way to the ground!

Crzyivan13 wrote:

Grassstrippilot wrote:I can only comment as to the A320, but there is ZERO input from the pilot during an autoland. Once you push the approach button, you're pretty much along for the ride and monitoring the aircraft. At 200' RA (radar altimeter), the First Officer calls "100 above". At 100' RA, the First Officer says "Alert" and starts looking for Flare to be annunciated on the Primary Flight Display. In the Flare Mode, the aircraft will align the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the runway and compensate for any x-wind, as well as pitch up. An audible "Retard" is announced queuing the Captain to retard the throttle, which, by the way, if he doesn't, the computer will do anyway. The captain must manually select reverse thrust if desired. The aircraft will continue to track centerline while autobraking using the localizer. The captain must remember to disengage the autopilot before trying to steer clear of the runway or it will continue to try to turn back to the localizer. And that's pretty much it. Depending on weight and crosswind (there is a lower limit...15 knts I believe), it normally does a really good job. It's amazing and a little unnerving to watch the first time you do a real one. Thereafter, it's pretty cool...and you're thankful you have the capability and aren't headed to your alternate...especially when trying to make your commute home!

Thanks for the great explanation Cory. It's hard to believe that this is even possible. I guarantee that it would be extremely difficult to just let it happen. (I mean let the airplane fly itself to the ground.) Especially when we are taught from the beginning to never let the airplane control you, you control the airplane, and fly it all the way to the ground!

The biggest surprise for me was how quickly things happen. The first hint of the runway environment comes when you are 100' or less AGL and moving at 140+ knts. Like I said, the first one for me had some pucker factor. The rest of been cool to watch. Just did one a few weeks ago in Denver. We broke out at 2,000' AGL to see the tower sticking out of fog. We could see the last 1,000' of runway, but that was it. On the approach end, it was 300-400' thick and very dense. The mixture of approach lights and snow removal vehicle lights lit the fog up to make a really cool scene. Wish I would have had a decent camera. In we went and we didn't see anything until crossing the threshold. And the Bus rolled it on with a bit of crosswind.

To give it some perspective, here is an animated pic of what visual cues you have at Cat IIIb, which is the lowest in the US.

http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/infographics/ils-cat-3/

Here are some videos of actual Cat III landings. The last one is a great example of it as well as low vis ops on the ground. The second is an Airbus but they pick the lights up early, near Cat I mins (200').

http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/infographics/ils-cat-3-videos/

It becomes less amazing that some of these airline pilots lose so much of their skills that they can't handle a manual, visual approach without landing short on the sea wall...

I've always argued, why use the AutoPilot to Minimums, risking when you depress the GoAround (GA) button the Automation quits working and you are left with hand flying a Missed Approach while raising flaps, retracting gear, and making a large power change. Hopefully you see the challenge of this.
I'd rather show up at the missed approach point instrument current!
But that's just me, an Old Fart that's still alive!
237
Oh yeah, I haven't used Automation flying an approach for the last 25 years!
I figure I'm paid to fly!

SkyTruck

don't know what airplane you are flying, but when you push the GA button on any modern airliner automation stays in. Autopilot and auto-throttle taking care of the missed approach. I fly long-haul and I can tell you hand flying a CAT 1 approach to minimums in questionable weather after 15 hours in the air and then a manual go-around is really not good airmanship, considering factors like being tired, fatigued and low currency. Obviously this problem does not present itself for a CAT 2 or CAT 3 approach as these have to be auto-lands (for my airline that is).

In our C-12s GA mode disengages the AP and the yaw dampner.

But that's not big iron and only approved for cat I, so maybe that's why.

CamTom12 wrote:In our C-12s GA mode disengages the AP and the yaw dampner.

But that's not big iron and only approved for cat I, so maybe that's why.

Same goes for the RJs and I think the EMBs out there too.

Pusher wrote:...hand flying a CAT 1 approach to minimums in questionable weather after 15 hours in the air and then a manual go-around is really not good airmanship, considering factors like being tired, fatigued and low currency.

Exactly. Or after a transcon red eye or redeye turn down to the islands. Or after your 3,4,5, or 6th legs bouncing up and down the east coast.

Even in those aircraft where automation doesn't stay on, going missed is pretty straight forward in my experience in these types of aircraft. And even if it isn't, "positive rate, gear up, autopilot on". Really simple to re-engage it. Lots of power to get you away from the ground, lots of performance, and I can't recall the last time I flew a published missed approach. You're always right back on vectors. So it's not like you're flying a complex missed approach procedure and worrying about obstacle or terrain clearance.

Pusher wrote:SkyTruck

don't know what airplane you are flying, but

I fly a French made, three engine, FBW piece of Crap.
And after a ten to eleven hour flight I still hand fly the arrival and approach.
What better way to know what an airplane is doing than by flying it.
It puts you in a position to communicate with your other crew member too. That way both of you know what's going on (777 at SFO).
My intention here isn't to pick a fight, but I don't understand the Gear up, Flaps up, Autopilot on thing.
I enjoy flying. If that's how I had to do it, I'd just drive.

My hero's are the guys flying the piston and turboprop stuff hauling freight/passengers and whatever else they can fit in the planes. Those guys could fly circles around the seasoned Airline Pilot.
Flying jet equipment really isn't flying.

I suspect you would agree, otherwise you wouldn't be on this site

Fraser

SKYTRUCK wrote -

'My hero's are the guys flying the piston and turboprop stuff hauling freight/passengers and whatever else they can fit in the planes. Those guys could fly circles around the seasoned Airline Pilot.
Flying jet equipment really isn't flying'.


What do you think we were doing before we were hired by the airlines?

You are obviously a disgruntled and unhappy Falcon pilot, so why don't you quit and let a fresh new recruit who would love to fly it take your place.

This would give you time to fly a piston ten hours a day and you could be your own hero.