j1b3h0 wrote:..... We didn't damage anything, but went completely off of a 150ft wide runway, between runway lights into the dirt, dust flying all over the place. Did a 180 degree turn. I just sat there for a minute, knees shaking...The tower asked if we were 'experiencing any difficulty'. I resisted the urge to suggest he get a headset with some brains in it.

They were trying to do you a favor & keep things low profile. If they had asked "hey you that just whizzed completely off the runway and spun out in the brush, do you need an ambulance or just some upholstery cleaner?", the FAA probably would have had some questions for you when they heard about it (which they would) and reviewed the audio tape. I've had a tower controller ask me if I was aware of their noise abatement procedures when I got too low near the Elliot Bay shoreline when departing Boeing Field in Seattle-- lots better than saying "hey bonehead you're too low" and I appreciated them saying what they did.

UngaWunga,
You are correct. You can't learn what the controls do without moving them solo. Move them to see what they do. Don't think in terms of pressure; move them. When we first learn to ride a bike, we make gross dynamic, proactive body movements. We do not try to find the exact balance spot; it doesn't exist. We alternate leaning much too far each way, resulting in a stabilized ride. After we have lots of flight hours, we appear to just pressure the controls a bit or not at all. That is a useless demonstration. Gross motor skills first and then fine motor skills. If we have lots of hours, we don't need flight time. The way we fly doesn't "demonstrate" much useful to a low time student. Low time students learn by making gross dynamic, proactive control movements. They should be handling the controls 99 percent of the time from the first flight. Good instructors talk a lot and limit demonstrations to 01 percent of the dual hours flown. Move the controls to see what they do. Move a control, including throttle, one way a lot. If you don't like that, move it the other way. If allowed only to pressure the controls, it will take many hours to figure out what you are doing.

The plane is now at Langley Airport cynj just a cross the border. The plane has been completely rebuilt and is a great little plane and now flies beautifully. A friend of mine bought it and I helped with the rebuild. I must say you guys were lucky !! There were so many things wrong with that plane it was unbelievable. The gear bolts were stripped and had been for some time, there were 7 shims in one side and none in the other, one of the aileron bell cranks was installed backwards, the tail wheel spring was installed wrong, man the list just went on and on.
She's fixed now and flies fantastic.

One of the things I've found in a number of Cessna taildraggers is mis aligned landing gear. Gross mis alignment becomes FAIRLY apparent to someone who is pretty experienced with that particular model, but even minor gear mis alignment can be really hard to note.

And, the only way to REALLY check alignment is by landing it. Most mechanics try to do a good job aligning gear during a complete rebuild, but this is NOT something that mechanics check during a pre buy or even an annual.

And, a mis aligns gear can really bedevil you.....they can be really hard to figure out unless they're really ugly.

As to instructors being on the controls, I agree with contact....the student MUST NOT feel the instructor on the controls unless it is to save a situation that the student simply doesn't recognize. And, that's the difference between a GOOD instructor and a good pilot: the good Instructor must GUARD the controls at ALL times, but not actually TOUCH the controls unless the student:

1). Is clearly making a mistake.

2). Clearly does not SEE the error

3). isn't doing anything (or the right thing) to remedy the error.

4). And the instructor intervenes JUST in time to save the day, and perhaps the airplane.

If an instructor intervenes too soon, the student will become frustrated and won't learn anything.

But, next time some experienced pilot (who's not an instructor) tells you he or she can check you out in a new to you airplane, remember this....it MAY work out, but review 1 through 4 above. That's not to suggest that ANY instructor is better equipped to handle these things, but this is the key skill set that an EXPERIENCED instructor develops over time, and that non-instructor pilots generally lack.

This is why I have never liked instructing in taildraggers like the 185, 195, etc. things happen pretty quick, and the instructor doesn't have a lot of time to recognize the problem, give the "student" time to recognize it and react, and then save the day if the student doesn't react appropriately. Training an experienced taildragger pilot in one of these isn't too bad, but initial taildragger training in one isn't my idea of fun....and yes, I've done it.

One note of caution on contactflying's comment about the student's using full control inputs: I've had more than one student SLAM the controls to their limits on landing, one of which sent us through the lights and off the runway.....the guy was six foot seven and had a LOT of leverage on that pedal that I could not overcome. We had a long talk about "dancing lightly" on the pedals after that, which worked fine. Long story there, but that student is now flying large taildraggers regularly and doing well.

So, my point is that, yes, full control inputs can be needed, but locking up on the controls is NOT good, especially if the student is stronger than the instructor. I nearly broke a student's nose one day when he locked up on me during a full flap stall in a 150.... He held the yoke ALL the way back, and full right aileron. I popped him in the nose with the back of my left hand, and magically, both his hands went right to his snout. I opted not to fly with him after that.

MTV

What MTV said is right on. I had the advantage of instructing mostly young farm boys who had lots of experience with all kinds of equipment. In most cases, the airplane was the simplest machine they had ever experienced.

Lets ease back to this statement for a moment:

The gear bolts were stripped and had been for some time..........

I'm not a mechanic, and I don't have any drawings of the Cessna gearbox/gear available......
A couple of questions for those who know. Wouldn't that likely affect handling? And, upmost, wouldn't that make damage considerably more likely in a ground loop?

I guess I'm still trying to ride to littlewheels defense....

I learned in a C-170B and my instructor would always let me have the controls till I did a big opps, then he would save the day. To make things better alot of the ground work was done with a back seat passenger, which gave the tail more swing power. I have flown with a guy now that is super touchy with taking over the controls and it really annoys me. I now have a PPL and know how to fix things but cant cause every little thing is taken over for... I can't stay current with him just about. I am thinking that I need to go rent a 150 for about a hour and get some real practice in.

Instead of going out for some 150 time, just fire your instructor. There are a lot of instructors out there, find one that doesn't annoy you, you are the customer.

But the thing is I am logging PIC time with him in his plane and basically I am just paying for fuel so I don't have much room to complain. Just I really need to get out and practice some things he won't let me do with his plane. Namely landings back 8 months ago I could drop the 170 down on any spot I wanted, after taking my check ride I landed right on the first foot of runway and made the 2nd turn off about 300 ft down the runway. I can barely hit the numbers now. just needing some polishing.

BTW If anyone is in the KFES/KFAM (South of KSTL about 30-50 miles area) that wants to take a tag along for a ride let me know I would love to go if I have the time.

cstolaircraft wrote:I now have a PPL and know how to fix things but cant cause every little thing is taken over for...

Knowing this is your friends plane I can't blame him, I'd be the same way I'm sure, especially since I'm not an instructor.

Reading between the lines it sounds like not only are you not happy with your touchdown point, but you are still letting the plane get away from you ("know how to fix things"), hence your friend's apprehension I'm sure. In my opinion staying ahead of the plane on landing is far more important then being able to spot land.

I got my taildragger training first in a Super D, from the back seat, then when I was no longer scaring the crap out of my instructor we moved to his Stearman. I then bought a Stearman and practiced practiced practiced. Took over a 100 landings before I could stay sufficiently ahead so I was no longer "fixing things". Part of the problem was worn out scissors on the gear, but no doubt I was also slow learner. And I was flying in and out of, what was to me at the time, a "short" strip of 1,200 feet. Each landing came with thoughts of Mr. Toads Wild Ride and running out of runway. Now half that distance is more then enough for me to land and stop the Stearman. I'm sure a lot of taildragger pilots here had similar experiences.

My suggestions would be to:

Find a grass strip you can practice on if at all possible, hard surface runways will accentuate every deviation in your landing.

Fly a long stabilized approach giving yourself time to get the plane tracking the runway - absolutely straight - zero drift, get your airspeed and descent rate where you want it, and most importantly to get your mind ahead of the plane.

Liven up your feet and legs. (In the beginning I actually kicked the rudder a little side to side, now just flexing my ankles quickly is sufficient) After a long flight I'll even liven up my shoulders, wrists, and fingers.

Get one hand on the throttle and relax the death grip you have with the stick on the other.

Keep your eyes far enough down the runway that you are not fixating, and use your peripheral vision, in some taildraggers (like the Stearman) this is the only vision you have. Keep your eyes and head active.

Don't rush the landing, just let it happen, but never quit flying the plane. Keep the nose straight (rudder) and compensate for drift (aileron) the very second you detect it.

Landing a taildragger is a very dynamic experience. The same is of course true with a trike, but because they allow sloppy technique they almost never are - at least that's been my experience riding in them.

Most important, have fun. Enjoy the learning process, things will come easier and quicker.

But he is not doing it one the landings as I am pulling of greasers for the most part now. After not flying much in 8 months my downwind to base turn is bad... I mean really bad. So he takes it does the turn then gives it back to me, never giving my the chance to get the feel of the plane in that configuration and fix it. I just need to go around the patch a couple times in the plane to get a bit of polishing and I feel like after that I would have everything made.

As for the spot landing I can still land on the spot as the average pavement pilot can I just can't nail it in a couple feet like I was doing in the 170 on grass.

BTW the guy I am flying with is a CFI and I am flying a C-172N

After learning in the C170 on pavement/ grass (1300ft) I have np with getting the nose pointed the right direction and zero drift. By the time I took my check ride on a good flying day where there wasn't turbulence coming off the warehouse 25 ft off to the side of the end of the runway I could land and add power to make midfield on 1300 of grass. Which now makes me feel bad about using more then that to get stopped.

I think something that might also be messing my downwind to base turn is that is were I add 20 degs of flap the 172 has electric flaps so I have a lot harder time adjusting to the new trim because I am not controlling how fast the flaps are coming down.

Ok I didn't see that coming. Assuming you have the 172 trimmed for level flight, bringing in flaps shouldn't have a drastic affect on aircraft pitch unless they are brought in too fast or at too high an airspeed. If you are going straight from zero to 20 degrees, try going from zero to 10 degrees, let the plane slow up, then go from 10 to 20 degrees, and repeat. In the approach and landing configuration bringing in flaps should slow the plane and help maintain a level flight attitude, not radically affect pitch or trim.

How does this square with what's been happening?

Manual flaps have the advantage of allowing one to feel the resistance due to airspeed so one doesn't apply too much too soon, plus they can be milked up and down.

cstolaircraft wrote:After learning in the C170 on pavement/ grass (1300ft) I have np with getting the nose pointed the right direction and zero drift. By the time I took my check ride on a good flying day where there wasn't turbulence coming off the warehouse 25 ft off to the side of the end of the runway I could land and add power to make midfield on 1300 of grass. Which now makes me feel bad about using more then that to get stopped.

I think something that might also be messing my downwind to base turn is that is were I add 20 degs of flap the 172 has electric flaps so I have a lot harder time adjusting to the new trim because I am not controlling how fast the flaps are coming down.

Not to be harsh, but these kinds of issues are specifically issues that you should expect (demand) that a COMPETENT CFI would help you to resolve.

In my experience, it is quite possible to develop bad habits due to bad instruction, and it definitely sounds like you may be going down that path.

If this CFI won't even work with you to learn better pattern procedures, continually taking the controls in non threatening circumstances (assuming, of course that you aren't getting aerobatic just before he takes over ) then you're not getting cheap instruction....you're letting him instill bad habits and frustration in a process that should be rewarding and helpful.

In other words, LOSE that CFI! I don't care if he's paying you.....you'll regret continuing down this road. It sounds to me that you have found an instructor who is truly frightened of flying. And it may be that he/she is using you to get more instructing time to qualify for a job. If so, that is just flat scary.

FWIW.

MTV

I have to agree with you mike that the CFI I am flying with is afraid of really "flying" the plane. The first time I flew with him he was yelling drop the nose and add power when I dropped below 70 knts with full flaps on final. the following land was not a good one cause I as a pilot with only tailwheel time just let it touch the ground AKA 3 point landing a 172. there was no way I felt comfortable floating down half the runway. I since after keep asking for the POH to look at the numbers and him saying the don't mean anything and that is the best way to flying the plane have worked my approach speed down to 55-60 knts, I can tell he really doesn't like it. That said he is a very high time pilot that has every rating in the books almost.

Right now I am not using him for instruction but I am just trying to stay semi current using his plane as it is all I can afford right now cause I am in college with out any real job. I do know this that as soon as this semester is over I am going to use some of my left over student aid to get some time in a 150 so I can do some polishing work.

My 709 ride turned out to be oral. Quick and painless. The FAA response to these things ranges widely. That confuses many tax payers. Having the CFI rating seems to keep insurance rates down in most cases. Our biggest shortcoming as pilots seems to be our ego not our rudders. Sharing the pain here is a good start.
The memory will make sure tail draggers have your full attention in the future.
Students, like neighbors, are unpredictable. Don't feel bad. Feel lucky. You have a paying job around little planes and stories to tell. Hey, you could have been born in North Vietnam and be bent over in a rice field.

Littlecub wrote:Lets ease back to this statement for a moment:

The gear bolts were stripped and had been for some time..........

I'm not a mechanic, and I don't have any drawings of the Cessna gearbox/gear available......
A couple of questions for those who know. Wouldn't that likely affect handling? And, upmost, wouldn't that make damage considerably more likely in a ground loop?

I guess I'm still trying to ride to littlewheels defense....

As long as the gear bolts remain more or less in place, they'll do there job. The nasty stuff in gearbox issues generally comes from sheared/loose rivets in the gearbox itself. The gear leg slides into a "slot" formed by the gearbox structure. The gear bolts just keep it from sliding out of that "slot". There's little stress on tho pose bolts, really.

MTV

As long as the gear bolts remain more or less in place, they'll do there job. The nasty stuff in gearbox issues generally comes from sheared/loose rivets in the gearbox itself. The gear leg slides into a "slot" formed by the gearbox structure. The gear bolts just keep it from sliding out of that "slot". There's little stress on tho pose bolts, really.

So, since there are no forces acting on the nut/bolt (thread) interface(s), the threads must have been stripped at the time of installation-or before. Right? Or, I guess some Bozo that owned a couple wrenches was trying to make his airplane track better....
Nice.

Littlecub wrote:

As long as the gear bolts remain more or less in place, they'll do there job. The nasty stuff in gearbox issues generally comes from sheared/loose rivets in the gearbox itself. The gear leg slides into a "slot" formed by the gearbox structure. The gear bolts just keep it from sliding out of that "slot". There's little stress on tho pose bolts, really.

So, since there are no forces acting on the nut/bolt (thread) interface(s), the threads must have been stripped at the time of installation-or before. Right? Or, I guess some Bozo that owned a couple wrenches was trying to make his airplane track better....
Nice.

Well not as I understand this. The bolt locates the gear leg on top of a shelf, and unless the PPonk kit has been installed the bolt is in tension in flight when the gear leg is hanging. However in the event of a side load such as in a groundloop the bolt is in tension again and that is when they get stripped. Recomended to change them out and add the full thickness nut.

There is a lot of discussion on the 170 forum as to whetehr the PPnk kit is a good thing as the risk of more serious damage might outweigh the advantagees.

daedaluscan wrote:There is a lot of discussion on the 170 forum as to whetehr the PPnk kit is a good thing as the risk of more serious damage might outweigh the advantagees.

This is an interesting topic.

There is a similar "high-strength gear" mod for the Bearhawk which increases the strength of certain parts, to give a greater resistance to shearing off the main landing gear during a very bad ground-loop on blacktop. I guess you might also use NAS bolts with such a departure from the original design philosophy (sacrificial parts vs. high strength parts).

I guess the mod was designed in response to some kind of request following an accident, but the designer doesn't actually recommend the modification himself. The gear were designed as the failure point in case of a serious mishap, to prevent a complete rollover and much more serious and expensive damage to the wings, gear attach fittings, longerons, and other much harder to repair/replace parts.
I understand it takes something pretty extreme to cause a gear failure as originally designed.