Yesterday I sold our family's Cessna 206. We've had some once in a lifetime adventures in the six years we've owned it, but it no longer meets our mission. We now live on the Gulf Coast of Florida and I will likely retire here. I grew up here and all of my family is still in the area. We don't travel in the plane enough to justify it. There are also a severe lack of places and times of year cool enough to fly-in camp. The majority of my flights are just me and maybe another sucker ignorant enough to trust my airmanship, spending an hour heating the oil. We're all sorry to see it go. It was the perfect airplane for our family.

---- Turning the page ----

After an almost 2-year study, I've decided to purchase a RANS S-20 kit that we will start building in the garage very soon. I wanted a 2-seat, side-by-side, taildragger kit that will be friendly for my kids to learn to fly in (if they desire). I've read several build manuals and flown several demo models.

More importantly I've sought out a kit with build simplicity and customer support sufficient to ensure I'd finish it. 2-3 year is a long time to keep the family motivated. This will obviously be my first build and I'm concerned about having the courage to trim this and fabricate that. The RANS community and customer support seems to be a good fit for me and I'm using a dealer who has a house in Lakeland. If things are sliding down the wrong path, I'll solicit some assistance getting back on track.

I'm making the last few decisions on options now, and will pull the trigger with a deposit early next week. Mainly, I'm deciding on the original wing or the new 141 aluminum wing. The 141 wing would increase the MGW to 1500 lbs., but they are shipping out the first kits now. Not sure I'm the ideal target to be early in the build order and experiment with some of the early builder challenges. However, the larger capacity would be very nice in several years when my wife and I are evading an empty nest on the way to the backcountry. That's more than a decade off though. The wing decision also drives the engine decision and certain kit options like cowl, etc. ROTAX 912, UL Power 350... so many decisions.

My adventure won't be nearly as interesting as the other builds and projects in the community (like Whee's Bearhawk, which is very impressive), but I will keep a kit log and update the site from time to time. I'll also add GBFlyer on speed dial. In Hawaii last month, Ted raved at how polished your build was. If anyone is in the Tampa/St. Pete area, drop in. I'll always have the beer fridge stocked and could surely use folks' false hope that I could actually do this.

Brett

You'll enjoy the build, Rans makes a good kit. I recently finished an S7 kit and am now hooked on the building process, trying to figure out what's next. Regarding your options with the 20, I would definitely stick with the 912uls. That's the engine it is designed around and the build will be much easier and faster if you minimize your excursions from the plans. I would go for the 141 wing. Higher gross, higher cruise, higher wing loading (should be better in the bumps). These things get tossed around in the bumps, that's my only complaint.


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That's really exciting, Brett!

I've always wanted to build - hopefully I will one day. You're going to do great and I'll be following along jealously!

I think I would go with the metal wings. RANS isn't known for using their customers for R&D so i'm confident the 141 wings will be thoroughly tested, In fact they are flying on RANS display S-20 which was at Airventure.

I'm hoping to build an S-7 sometime in the next few years and I hope they make the metal wings available for it. One benefit is the extra fuel capacity.

Very exciting! Building can be lots of fun. I'm looking forward to following your build.

Is the metal wing option the same wing they are developing for the S-21? If so, it's a good bit shorter than the original S-20 fabric wing, I believe. I looked long and hard at the S-21, but that thing sure doesn't have much wing for a back country toy. It looked to me like they optimized that wing for cruise. It's also shorter so that they can use a single strut.

I'd do some careful consideration of that, depending on what your ultimate goal is for the airplane.

Sounds like an exciting project in any case. A friend here has built an S-7 and it's a really nice airplane, and he was very impressed with the kit.

MTV

mtv wrote:Is the metal wing option the same wing they are developing for the S-21? If so, it's a good bit shorter than the original S-20 fabric wing, I believe. I looked long and hard at the S-21, but that thing sure doesn't have much wing for a back country toy. It looked to me like they optimized that wing for cruise. It's also shorter so that they can use a single strut.

I'd do some careful consideration of that, depending on what your ultimate goal is for the airplane.

Sounds like an exciting project in any case. A friend here has built an S-7 and it's a really nice airplane, and he was very impressed with the kit.

MTV

It is the same wing and it shortens the wingspan by about 2 ft.

Interestingly enough RANS data shows a decrease in stall speed.

MTV nailed it. Schlitter has always been more of a go fast guy rather then a STOL guy, in my 20+ year association with the company that is my take anyway. Build it like the directions say and you won't go wrong. But, if you really want to deck out as STOL worthy as possible......

One example: it wasn't until John Roberts started supplying aftermarket CUB style gear (with improvements, like airshocks for better rebound control) that RANS came out with a version, and it still wasn't as bad ass as John's. I have learned to just add on or change what I feel makes it better for my kind of flying, the one thing I wouldn't change is that wing, I LOVE THAT WING! IF I get a S-20 (not really thinking about it, except for when I ask some lady friend if she wants to go flying, and then when she sees she has to sit in back..... one said, and I'm not making this up, "Oh, so the woman sits in the back," like she was Rosa freaking Parks or something, that was the end of that friendship, especially when she told me a week later she went flying with her landlord, who had a 172, what a slap in the face!) I'd specify strongly that I'd want the same wing the S-7S has, sure it'd go faster with a smaller wing, this is news? I don't know what to think about them claiming a slower stall speed with a smaller wing, maybe one was at gross and the other wasn't? They have always been very conservative in their advertising, like VANS, almost too much, as if tooting their own horn would be unseemly, which sure doesn't prevent other kitplane companies from proclaiming they are "STOL champs." Again IF I was looking at a S-20 I'd immediately start bugging John Roberts about getting some Cub style gear for it, but that's just me. No question that spring gear is lower drag and it'll go faster, but I'm in no hurry. I would never advise anyone to intentionally overload an airplane, but I have seen S-7's carry about anything that fits in it, though with the extra baggage room of a 20 that COULD get out of hand. I'd also go with the Rotax, and the BigBore mod.

I see a lot of mods on various kitplanes, extended spans, wing cuffs, on and on. I've never felt the need and I don't seem to land longer then about anyone, Randy got the wing right, KISS. One lift strut? How would I tie on tree branches littering the LZ? As a public service I cleared this out of the way, it's now leaning up against the hangar with all the other stuff I deemed in the way for other pilots on other sites, you're welcome. 5 digit elevation BTW, thanks to that wing.

I build a S7 two years ago. I was constantly impressed with the fit and finish of the kit. Everything went together perfectly. Since the first flight, I have not had to adjust or change anything. It flys hand and feet off for many minutes at a time, very stable and another surprise is that I never have to touch the trim from take off to landing. I wouldn't spend the extra money for the all metal wing, not sure what that buys you, although it may go together faster than the fabric wing. I just re-pitched my prop this week and I can now cruise at 115-120 and still I see over 1000fpm on take off. Great plane, and you won't go wrong with the 912ULS.
I have over 500 build pics on line, if you want pm me and I'll send you the link.
Pete

Thanks for all the different insights. It's great to have such a knowledgeable community to draw from.

I don't have anywhere to go fast and I'm leaning toward the original S-20 wing for several reasons including some of those you've listed above.

Brett

The S20 kicks the S7S's ass in all aspects of flight and comfort except the visibility department. I still like the S7 better personally but there sure isn't anything wrong with either.

Rans is a good outfit. Bear in mind throughout your journey that by and large homebuilders are an extremely cheap bunch and RS has obliged them on several fronts. Not a knock, just the way it is.

The only thing I can say about the new 141 wing and the low stall speed is that the improved kind of fowler like flaps may help with the stall speed? They come out and down, and are pretty large!

The ailerons are also balanced nicely and light on control, and the wing responds quickly! So what you have is an agile, extremely strong (6g+ 4g- working 9+ 6- ultimate at 1800lbs gross) wing that is cleaner (1 strut, shorter) faster, and still getting a nice stall speed!

This is without VG's as well (which may or may not help as much as they have on a lot of other RANS wings... so can't assume too much there yet).

Also the large fuel capacity is possible. It is also much quicker to assemble! These are just some things to ponder... there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fabric 20/7 wing that's be being used! For absolute ultimate STOL, the fabric wing with VG's will give a very low stall speed. The 141 metal wing may end up right there with it, but VG testing has not been done yet.

I did some testing against the 141 metal winged Raven yesterday with Randy. The take off roll was right in the hunt with the standard 7/20 wing from what I could see. If it's longer, it's not by much. I lined my plane up against his (formation, same time testing), both of us had passengers, both empty weights are about the same, I was a little heavier overall but pretty close. With the zipper and other mods, I pulled away instantly off the line, so I was in the air sooner, but we both used about the same distance. Point being if he had my motor, he would have been off shorter than me no problem! Makes sense with more wing area. But I'm right with, and sometimes able to best an s7 with a stock rotax on take off roll. Neither of our take off rolls with a passenger were very long either! 125-150ft? basically no wind.. 1900ft msl. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it would be really hard to 'go wrong' with either wing after seeing the new metal wing in action this past weekend. It can do some many things well. My dream is an S20 with metal wings, and motor upgrades like I have on my 6. What a machine!

Again, thanks for all the input. I wish I could have made the open house. We had a household airplane build committee meeting this evening. I brought up the wing thing and several other options. I wasn't aware that cost was the major agenda item and tried to explain the finances on the fly. It was a classic zig when I should have zagged scenario. We're going to the Deland showcase and will revisit the decision then. Seems the cheaper wing and engine will takeoff faster in my house. Fingers crossed for an order in just over two weeks. We're burning cooler garage days (which is also not the right argument to make).

I don't know much about all the RANS designs, but while visiting with Randy at the fly-in he said that one of the goals with the new designs was being easy to build. ALOT of thought went into that new wing.

The S-20 looks good. The S-21 will be very good.

Regarding engines. I know they are working on putting the Titan o-340 (180hp) on the s-20. The Titan is also going on the S-21. I think the Titan is also used on the carbon cubs and they love it.

I would keep the Titan in mind. You could probably upgrade later.

EDIT: The Titan costs more new (around $27,000), however I have heard of guys getting them used and saving quite a bit. Its getting more popular.

On the wing: (On their website) Looks like the metal wing costs 1800 bucks more (maybe a bit more to cover it). If you want the newer wing, I would say go with it. You will be spending a good chunk of money, so I wouldn't lose sleep over $1800 more if it means getting what I want.

Good info GravityKnight. OK, the same wing but with the new flaps!

Yesterday I flew 2.2 hours, to Afton and return with a little screwing around along the way, on return 6 gallons brought the site gauges back up to where they were. This was with a climb up 9500' (from 5600'), on regular (low octane, as in REGULAR) mogas, for a lot of different reasons, my fuel economy is phenomenal, better then it's ever been. The latest change was the 1" cross over tube, go figure, but that, plus the zipper kit, plus the Hackman Leaner, the Prince prop, have knocked my consumption down from 4+ GPM to 3-+, while increasing performance. Damn

How is the visibility out of it? So many airplanes feel like you are sitting in a tunnel. T-Craft, Murphy are a couple examples I can think of. S-20 looks like a very nice airplane but since I have never sat in one I was wondering.

Kurt

Might be a stupid question but what is the difference between the 20 and the 21?

G44 wrote:Might be a stupid question but what is the difference between the 20 and the 21?

The S-20 is tube and fabric construction. Its is LSA compliant with the original wing.

The S-21 is all metal with a 1800 lb gross. I would bet on its performance being similar to a Husky or xCub although it probably will have a little less useful load.

https://www.rans.com/aircraft

Kansas Flyer wrote:

G44 wrote:Might be a stupid question but what is the difference between the 20 and the 21?

The S-20 is tube and fabric construction. Its is LSA compliant with the original wing.

The S-21 is all metal with a 1800 lb gross. I would bet on its performance being similar to a Husky or xCub although it probably will have a little less useful load.

https://www.rans.com/aircraft

Thanks Kansas Flyer

I remember the four days that I wasn't an airplane owner. Placed my order and sent the deposit for an S-20 with the metal 141 wing. Shelly and I did a rock-paper-scissors to determine which wing. Scissors won for the metal wing. I'll stand by in anticipation of a fuselage delivery status. The wing kit will follow sometime after.

Now I've got a couple tasks to complete. Most important is to convince my wife that this is a safe process. She thinks this is like covering a bathtub with a bedsheet and pushing it off the roof. She's not that far off, however EAA would rather I sell her on how scientific and safe this is. We'll see.

Brett