Hey all,
I'm new to flying (56 hrs, checkride 4-24) My question is this. Cruising around, no place in general, I see a spot out there and think to myself. I wonder if I could set this puppy down right there? No one around, miles from anyone. Besides safety issues of stuffing the plane, is it legal to land say just to land and take off. I'm curios to know what kind of bush/mountain
operations are legit to practice. do you hunt interesting dirt or grass strips first then move on with time and practice. I have definitely been bit by some sort of bug.
M.F.

Well down here near the border we have a few places that are actual strips we can land at but the local gendarmes think all airplanes are used for drug smuggling so you have to be careful. Check with other BCP ers in your area to find out of the way strips. One of my flying buddies was held for two hours at gunpoint at smugglers while they flew in a drug sniffing dog to check his plane out. THere were about 30 law enforcement types from several agencies staked out at the strip and all came running out when he landed. It's just another strip to land at to us but they take a dim view of it. You can see a pix of smugglers in my gallery. I'd get some more hours under your butt and practice slow flight and spot landings a bunch before going into any at this point.

Lance, Really. never heard of that law. When was this passed? I suppose they (It's them again) can enforce that one any time we land at a back country strip in Cal then. Be interrested to hear from other californians about this. There goes all our fun.

We'll have to double check the legality of that one. Isn't it illegal for a state to effect laws that are more restrictive than federal laws? How can a state supercede the regulations of Forest Service or BLM land?

watkinsnv wrote:CA. passed a law mind you not the FAA, that states you can only land and take off at or on a designated airport. Lance

About 25 years ago I was down in Truckee with a buddy of mine, and we were out goofing off in a mutual friend's Citabria. We took off from TRK and headed up to the "Old Truckee Airport" which was just some ruts in the sagebrush next to I-80 where the CHP scales are now.

We spent about an hour doing bounce and go's, landing south, up and 180, land north, up and 180, and so on. As we did this, we saw a CHP (California Highway Patrol) 4X4 sittin' on the shoulder of the freeway, and just figured he was there enjoying the show, and didn't really pay much attention to him.

After about an hour we got bored and headed back to TRK. We landed, and had barely parked the airplane when the airport manager came running out all excited, shouting, "What the f*** did you two do this time?!?!" Al and I pointed fingers at each other and said, "Who? Us?" not knowing what the heck he was talking about.

"Well, there's a CHP Officer here, and he's going to take you two to jail."

Oh well, that was a new one, but what the heck. About that time our young officer comes storming out, spittle flying, eyes bugged out, just screaming about pilot licenses, airplane registration, jail and handcuffs. Quite the show. I asked quietly and politely what the problem was, and he launched into a tirade about how we had broken "the law" by landing in the sagebrush and not at an airport, and he was going to arrest us.

"Ok," says I, "what law did we break by landing out there?"

He looked at me like I was stupid or something and said, "It's against the law to land an airplane somewhere other than an airport." I asked again, "What law? Give me the code section, and regulation it comes from, that you're gonna use to take us to jail and book us with." His answer was the same... "It's against the law."

This went on for probably ten minutes, back and forth, and I was actually looking forward to the trip to jail so I could get a cup of coffee and a sandwich. But my buddy Al, who was an Alaska float pilot in the summers and TRK CFI in the off seasons, had given the airport manager the high sign to call a flight student of his, who was also a Truckee CHP officer, to get down there and help get this train wreck straightened out.

The manager made the call and Scotty arrived shortly. He listened to the story for a few minutes, looked at Al and I and rolled his eyes, then pulled junior CHP aside and had a long talk with him. Our young officer never came back to apologize to us, but just stomped off after talking with Scotty. But, Scotty came back, said, "Sorry about that guys. Kid's new, fresh up from LA, and he's never seen an airplane land in the dirt before."

Maybe there is a law on the books now, but in my experience, most non-flying cops think off airporting is against the law just because they think it should be, but when pushed to cite the actual code section, they can't.

Gump

The legal aspect aside, checking out a possible landing spot from the air with no ability to do so from the ground first is a whole different ball game from landing at a seldom used strip. There are so many variables that even very experienced pilots sometimes get fooled, as the accident record in Alaska shows.

Ground type is critical, as one of the biggest dangers is underestimating the softness of the ground and then flipping the plane on touchdown. I nearly did that in a SuperCub 20 years ago ....it permanently cured me of that itch, and now I wouldn't dream of it except in VERY specific circumstances, like dry lakes where I knew other folks had landed within the last month or so and no rain had fallen. There are places in Nevada, Oregon, Wyoming, or Montana where I might consider it, but I'd really want to talk to locals about the exact place or ideally visit it on the ground before committing my dearly beloved 180 to an off airstrip landing.

Be aware that I have many hours in gliders, where this is condsidered just part of the game and much time is devoted to learning how to analyze different possibilities of off-field landings and how to deal with them. Maybe I'm just getting old, but for me the risk is just too extreme in 99.99% of the cases.

Rocky

Yeah like I said talk to your fellow local BCP ers to find the safer ones.

Here is a copy of the State of California Guide for Law Enforcement Officers with regard to aeronautical issues: http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/planning/aeron ... autics.pdf

You will notice that there are prohibitions to landing aircraft in designated wilderness areas there, but no mention of a prohibition of landing aircraft off airport otherwise. In fact, the definition of airport contained here is simply anyplace used to land or takeoff an airplane, so if you land on a gravel bar in a river, that must be an airport.

That said, every state is a VERY complex collection of land ownership. A private citizen might consider landing your aircraft on their property to be trespass. A court might well agree with that. Any state or federal agency MAY have restrictions on landing of aircraft within their jurisdictions.

So, the point here is, be careful where you land, try to find out at least who owns the land, and if they have some prohibition on landing of aircraft.

And, even if there isn't any restriction, DON'T BE STUPID or OBNOXIOUS. Aviation already is viewed by a lot of folks as a game enjoyed only by rich playboys, and we don't need any more restrictions than we already have.

Finally, landing your airplane off airport does suggest a slightly higher level of risk. That said, the risk is manageble, WITH SOME GOOD INSTRUCTION, and with a good bit of flight time under your belt. I wouldn't even think about giving someone with 54 hours dual instruction in how to land off airport.

First, learn to fly your airplane absolutely precisely. That means no more Private Pilot PTS standards for short field landings. In MY PTS, I require touchdown within +10 feet, -0 feet of the intended touchdown point. Can't manage that? Then you're not ready to fly off airport yet. Work on that, your touchdown speeds, and get them totally in hand, (and you can do all that at an airport), and THEN you can get some dual instruction in site evaluation, which is the other big skill set in off airport work.

Off airport landings are a great deal of fun, and they are not rocket science. They also need not be significantly more risky than any other type of aviation, frankly. The key is absolutely precise piloting skills, on target, on speed, EVERY time, and good site evaluation skills. You won't learn those things on the internet, by the way.

It cracks me up all the talk about how difficult flying in the Idaho backcountry is. Compared to operating in a truly off airport environment, flying those strips is fairly mundane. That said, either is totally manageable with a proper introduction, provided by a competent and skilled instructor.

MTV

Thanks for the input. I know i need more time/exp. I realize every time I fly more knowledge is gained. One step at a time.
M.F.

Good link on the PDF Mike, thanks.

mtv wrote:It cracks me up all the talk about how difficult flying in the Idaho backcountry is. Compared to operating in a truly off airport environment, flying those strips is fairly mundane.

However, compared to operating at our little local county airports, the Idaho backcountry IS a big deal for us pilots who are fairly inexperienced with significant terrain and elevation. No matter how "good" you are, the feeling of exhillaration is just as intense when you push new ground.

I expect most of us are enamored with stories of the fabled bush pilots of Alaska, but I for one would probably never be comfortable with making a livelyhood from the daily risk those guys encountered.

mtv wrote:Here is a copy of the State of California Guide for Law Enforcement Officers with regard to aeronautical issues: http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/planning/aeron ... autics.pdf

That said, every state is a VERY complex collection of land ownership. A private citizen might consider landing your aircraft on their property to be trespass. A court might well agree with that. Any state or federal agency MAY have restrictions on landing of aircraft within their jurisdictions.

So, the point here is, be careful where you land, try to find out at least who owns the land, and if they have some prohibition on landing of aircraft.

And, even if there isn't any restriction, DON'T BE STUPID or OBNOXIOUS.

MTV

The California Guide for Law Enforcement looked pretty non-specific regarding off-airport ops in general, BUT, they mirrored several FAR's in the Public Utilities Code, most importantly Careless and Reckless Operation as a "catch-all" gotcha. If you go out and play where you're not supposed to and get caught, I'm betting that's what your ticket or trip to jail will be for.

That being said, using public property... BLM, USFS, and others, where off-road and other motorized vehicles are allowed to wander, I think they'd be hard pressed to say much if you're out there on an old dirt road or using a dry lake bed and not buzzing people or blocking the road. That, and with staff and budget cuts, the chances of anyone actually being there to catch you are pretty slim.

Down here in Nevada, if I'm not in the Cessna, I'm off on my four-wheeler exploring old mine sites and ghost towns. I stick to trails/roads, and if I come up to a closed gate or no-trespass sign, I just turn around and go somewhere else just as a common courtesy to the land owner. Growing up a ranch kid, that's how I was raised and taught.

I do the same thing in the airplane.

Gump,

And in that part of the world, that habit pattern is a lot less likely to wind up attracting bullets... .

Zane, I'm with you on the Idaho back country. As I've said for years, every PLACE is different, and offers a different set of challenges. Come on over here for a while and see what that does to your perspective on what constitutes a "crosswind".

My point was simply that a number of folks spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to suggest that flying in one part of the world is just plain impossible for anyone but superpilots. That isn't true, nor is it true that flying in an off airport environment is that tough either. Just get some GOOD instruction from someone who knows the business, and then use your head for something other than a tool to keep the headset pads from sticking together.

MTV

There's one more thing I should add here. As I said my friend was held for two hours. I landed there another time and saw two figures approaching from the other end at port arms and jogging in my direction. I decided to leave the area and took off flying over the two people at about 4-500 ft above ground level when I saw one of them looking at me with binoculars. Turns out they were border patrol agents in the back country. I heard a couple of weeks later that they were looking for the Cessna with the first two numbers 77. I was a PA 22 with 7756D numbers. I called border patrol and got their sgt on the phone who said they had indeed been looking for me. I was told that they reported to their superiors that I dove my airplane at them and tried to hit them. Any pilot with any sense knows this is a total fabrication. Iasked what the sgt thought would happen if I hit his men and he said I would have killed them and they were thinking of shooting at me. I advised him a plane isn't a car and any contact with anything on the ground including people would probably bring me down and that his agent was a damn liar. All was settled and he asked me to stay out of smugs for a couple of weeks at least. Now I'm pretty enforcement minded in fact my son is a NYPD detective and worked undercover narcotics for 6 years, and I was SDPD for 8 years but let me tell you not all law enforcement officers are honest. This guy flat out made up a bunch of shit about the incident. Smugs is private property, but let me tell you if they want to they can make your life hell so be careful wherever you land.

Also, remember that if you fly your airplane within 500 feet of people on the ground, the FAA can, and very well may violate you. Even if you were landing or taking off at the time, there have been instances where the FAA violated a pilot who was landing or taking off, or going around, flew within 500 feet of someone, and it stuck, all the way up to the NTSB Board.

I try to stay away from people with an airplane if at all possible. Sometimes, that simply isn't possible, of course, but if there is ANY other option, I'd take that route, including staying put and chatting up some BP guys who just got a workout.

Course, down there guys with guns don't necessarily work for the good guys, either....In which case, "Your honor, I saw these apparent drug smugglers coming at me with firearms pointed at me, and feared for my life, so I jumped in my plane and left".

Law enforcement officers are human, and unfortunately some of them have some of the same faults found in the rest of society. Too bad, cause it gives them all a bad name.

MTV

mtv wrote:G
My point was simply that a number of folks spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to suggest that flying in one part of the world is just plain impossible for anyone but superpilots. That isn't true, nor is it true that flying in an off airport environment is that tough either. Just get some GOOD instruction from someone who knows the business, and then use your head for something other than a tool to keep the headset pads from sticking together.

MTV

That's for sure. I am by no means anything resembling a super pilot, though Alaska pilots in general rule

My most vivid recollection along these lines was when I first moved from Kodiak to Fairbanks. The folks I was flying around up there seemed stunned that I wouldn' t fly in just plain butt ugly weather in Fairbanks, cause they'd heard all these stories about the kind of weather people fly in around Kodiak.

I finally sat them down and pointed out that those two places are DIFFERENT. One is not necessarily more or less difficult to fly in than the other, but they offer VERY different challenges. The key is to learn the challenges of the area you are going to fly in, and manage the risks.

I flew in pretty atrocious weather in Kodiak. That said, I could also land somewhere within just a few miles of anywhere I went, either on a lake or at the head of a bay. There are ways to get in trouble there, though, no doubt.

Now, the Interior of Alaska possesses all sorts of mountains, just like Kodiak, but you can't just fly a couple miles and land your seaplane in a lake or bay. Also, the Interior contains all sorts of very generic looking hills. Get turned around up there, and there are no distinctive landmarks to help you orient yourself. GPS helps that now, but....

Also, the Interior isn't all right at sea level, around the perimeter, like Kodiak is.

Kodiak brought some really tough flying, and we flew in some truly evil weather there. I flew in some tough conditions in the Interior as well, but the issues were different.

I'd argue that a thinking individual, with average skills could operate safely in either place. The key is to spend some time figuring out where teh traps are and how to manage the risks in that particular environment.

One area isn't necessarily harder to fly in than another, but they are all different and offer different challenges.

MTV

Yes at that distance I had no idea who was approaching me and I have seen numerous Illegals on the trails in that area before. I just decided the best course of action was exit stage left. Iceman

Gump's story reminds me of when a friend of mine bellied in his Bonanza several years ago at our home airport. He left it on the runway while he got on the telephone and rounded up some help to get it up and over to his hangar. I suppose he was gone about 10-15 minutes. When we back out to it, there was a county mountie busy stringing yellow crime scene tape on it! He told us he was impounding it. The owner tried telling him we needed to get it off the runway. When that degenerated into an argument, the cop told him "one more word and you're going to jail!". My friend went back to his hangar and called the FAA, who told him to get that thing off the runway. He returned to the airplane and told the cop this, and offered the name/number of the FAA guy he had talked to. The cop didn't say a word, didn't offer to help, just climbed back into his sheriff's car & drive off. Unbelievable!
This cop later got himself resigned off the sheriff's dept, due to some misconduct issues (big surprise there!). I bumped nto him when he got a job selling cars at the local Ford dealer just up the highway from the airport. He couldn't understand why I didn't want to have anything to do with him....

Eric

Yeah like I said if they want to they can make your life a living hell, thinking they are right. THe phrase,"they were thinking of shooting at you" in my situation was what scared me.