Backcountry Pilot

[OregonMaule offline]

Hello everybody. I have been shopping the heck out of the Maule M-7s out there. I am ready to start making offers. There are lots to choose from. Because of the number of these planes out there I do not want to pay retail. I want to be in between wholesale and retail. I do not want to offend any sellers. I have access to AOPA Vref and Trade a Plane estimator, and I have a Vref CD coming. In the end I may have to pay retail, but for now what do you think is a good strategy for me. Looking forward to your opinions...Rob Burson PS This is my 1st plane.

[Strata Rocketeer offline]

IMHO, you should stick to the book value of the plane based on careful consideration of all the factors that establish that value. Do a thorough pre-buy inspection of the plane you think you want and make the offer based on the planes history and how it's equipped. If the plane books out lower than the asking price you can negotiate from a position of strength but be very careful about going a whole lot lower than book and make sure you can back up your claims as to the planes actual value.

You can make low-ball below book offers based on what you perceive to be poor market conditions, but be prepared to have a number of people pissed-off at you.

The best way to get a good deal on a plane is doing your homework to be sure you get what you're payin' for.

[Zzz]

Also depends on how badly the guy wants to get out from under it and whether he's been fielding other offers. If he depressed because the market is soft and he hasn't been getting many calls, he may be happy to negotiate with you.

Oh, and have it annualed by a disinterested party as a pre-buy. Don't learn the hard way. You may end up with more negotiating leverage, or want to walk away altogether.

[maules.com offline]

The ultimate plan is for both buyer and seller to end the transaction with a 'warm/fuzzy' feeling regardless of those two human emotions, which always hover in the background,--buyer's remorse & seller's remorse.
Next time around, the buyer will be a seller and the seller hopefully becomes a buyer.
Jeremy
(31 yr student,'transaction 101')

[OregonMaule offline]

Thank you all very much. I am surprised that more owners do not pay for an appraisal to show perspective buyers. They don't cost that much when your talking 50K to 100K planes. It sounds like buying an airplane is like buying hot rods, boats, and custom bikes. The book is just a starting, get ya in the ballpark guide. I like to negotiate, so here I go. Time to start making some serious offers. Wish me luck. Soon to be Maule owner...Rob

[Strata Rocketeer offline]

Jeremy made the point I was tryin' to make more clearly and succinctly.

Try to be fair to both you and the seller because at some point you're going to reverse positions, and you're gonna want a fair price for the plane when you sell it too - whether or not the economy and market conditions are good or bad.

All that said, there are quite a few planes out there for sale over book value, so take care and do your homework (or get a knowledgeable pro to do your homework for you).

[qmdv offline]

When I was shopping for a 182 I had my heart set on a strait tail model. This was also my first plane. This was in late 1999 and early 2000. I looked at a lot of junk, er a questionable planes. At that time prices were escalating and the good planes were going fast. If you checked out the plane and took a week to think about it, the plane was gone.

I spotted the one that I eventually bought on the net in AVWEB. I am in California and it was in Ohio. The photo looked good and the owner consented to copy the last five years of log book entries and fax them to me. My local mechanic who also owned a strait tail 182 wanted to see just what kind of annuals the plane had been getting. The last three annuals were extensive because they were by a different mechanic than the previous one who just did a tire kickers. The new mechanic was a part time guy cus his full time job was the head of restoration at the Air Force Museum in Columbus. Now that would be a neat job to have.

Flew out and checked it out, no corrosion and I just had to have the plane. I paid about 1500 more that book cus I was tired of looking and within 6 months it would be worth what I paid.

In todays market I would not pay more than book, they are not being snapped up as fast as then. Oh and by the way, I ended up with a 182B witch is the last strait tail, first with cowl flaps and the first with a decent panel arangment.

The best thing about buying a plane that is a long ways away is that you get to fly it all the way accross the country. The next one that I buy will be from Main, maybe from Australia.

And like I said, have a good Maul mechanic check out the log book entries for the past five years before you travel too far.

Tim

[hardtailjohn offline]

Oh, and have it annualed by a disinterested party as a pre-buy. Don't learn the hard way. You may end up with more negotiating leverage, or want to walk away altogether.

Zane's got the best advice on here, although I usually recommend that they have it annualed by the buyer's mechanic (who will be doing the annuals from now on) if possible. I've done this more than a few times and found some real messes that saved people lots of money.
JH

[soaringhiggy offline]

amen to that.

The buyer needs to be in the pilots seat for that information. It is amazing what can get passed on.

[Zzz]

In my case, I sent a broker/A&P IA back to Iowa to do the pre-buy. Oh I was so naive then. This guy had only his best interest in mind, which was to make the sale happen. He helped with the financing, and by god if he was going to lose that loan origination fee.

I don't really feel like he had MY best interest in mind, which was to find stuff that would possibly be a dealbreaker, or help me negotiate.

As it stands, I've become a pretty good airplane wrench over the last year. Learned a lot the hard way in a short period of time.

Z

[By Rocket I go offline]

Hiiiiiya there! (explanations of my absence later on if someone asks)

You have a lot of buyer´s experiences on top of this texts. All of them really good. I´m kind of acting as a broker right now (the reason of the absence, even if nobody asked) and the only thing to... not to add, because it has been said, but to re-write: Before you do the pre-purchase inspection, do the pre-pre-purchase inspection, and then again, a just-before-you-pay-inspection!

Just came back from London where I´ve been inspecting an Arrow IV and heading to Paris in a few hours to inspect a Robin Hr-100/250. What did I do? Getting the book is a needed step, but you need to have an idea of the daily and actual market by tracking the model you are interested in; on the net, magazines, fields out there... you´ll see times, dates, equipment and prices. Then you can see those that go fast, and those that stay advertised forever. One thing is the book value and another one the actual prices I say this because of the Hr-100/250´s Those things cruise at 158 Kts, stay up there for 8 hours and can carry an elephant if needed, but they are not the "famous Hollywood actress", but the "damn good theatre actor", not so known, one thousand times cheaper, but acting one million times better. I could say it´s too late to say this once you look decided to get a M-7 for yourself, but what the hell, you didn´t buy it yet!!

So, after deciding what was the stuff to find in a plane for me (I mean, the customer), I searched for the models meeting those needs. Once they are there (famous actresses and theatre actors included), I made that average pricing research. Unless there´s a really good/cheap Arrow IV to look at, I won´t bother asking about her. If it appears, then yes, have the seller sending you those books. Usually, they have a list where you can read what has been done and when (hours and dates). Ask for it to make a first selection. Those that remain "alive" are now your candidates. Ask their sellers to send as much info as they can!! The actual logs, sheets reflecting everything with the proper FAA/engineer stamps. These are easy to find if the plane had a good and organized maintenance, so if the seller says something like "that´s a hell of a work. Come here to see the plane, you´ll be pleased", just pass. The Arrow for instance. I got those sheets from the seller in a couple of hours, since day one up to the last one in June plues the last ton of pages from the books. How can it be? It was always well cared, and every single and little visit to the work shop deserved a stamped sheet stapled in the logs. Those sheets are easy to see even with the book closed, arent´they? Sending them to someone asking is as easy as opening the book on the larger pages and scanning. Easy huh? How can that be a hell of a work? Only if they don´t exist or if they are lost.

That was the pre-pre-purchase. Then, grab your mechanic, have the engineer having a chat with both of you in front of his saint manuals, have him adding his personal recommendations based on personal and read experience on the model and go visiting the seller. Best place to look at it is a work shop, no doubt. Have the mechanic and/or engineer working on it in the past helping. They should know the plane. Look at his face, look at the points he omits... He´s just helping, grabbing the prop for a compression test, not actually performing it, but it´s good in many ways having him around. Make that pre-purchase inspection.

Then the just-before-you-pay-inspection. As you didn´t sign anything yet, keep reading documents, keep investigating about the model, about the unit´s real life (spotters can be a fine resource of information here), the instruments it has and someone else´s experience with them, someone who rented it five years ago, someone who rented it last week... make a last check of everythig just before you go signing. Grab its books again, check out its numbers today, check if the tires are "the same", if that "corrected oil leak" is actualy corrected...

Whatever, I need a coffee.

Jose

[OregonMaule offline]

Hello again: Who knows an AP that will travel for a pre buy? Or am I better off with a aircraft appraisal company? How about a Maule pilot to ferry what I buy buck to TTD? AP/Maule pilot?? Thanks for the help....Rob

[maules.com offline]

Rob, first is to find the airplane you are most interested in, get the closeups, the log copies and check s/l s/b and ad's, or have the mechanic who is nearby and going to be responsible for looking after your plane look at this stuff. Next, that info will tell you if the aircraft is worth the asked price, The pre-buy inspection will uncover out of line, unairworthy stuff, if the plane is being sold with everything working, rather than 'as is'. Now is the time to make offers if the plane is not as advertised and/or not worth the asking price.
Geographics, timelines and other circumstances can change who you use and how you use them.
From the sellers point of view, the buyer needs to have his/her financing in order and available, and the insurance question taken care of. Sellers spend a lot of effort supplying info to potential buyers whose ducks are not yet in a row, or are not serious and so the seller is sometimes slow to act if they've been burnt a couple of times.
Jeremy

[hardtailjohn offline]

Rob, Jeremy's got it there... have the mechanic that you're going to use back home, look things over. I've done this a number of times, and it's saved the buyer a bunch of money a few times! Sometimes, sad to say, the seller was trying to get rid of something he knew about, but most of the time, it was an honest person that just didn't know there were any descrepancies.
Like I stated on here quite some time ago, some mechanics get much more detailed in their annual inspections (such as I do) than others, and what one guy thinks is no biggie, can wind up costing you a bunch of money when you go to get your annual done next time. This is the reason I say have YOUR mechanic do the pre-buy at the same time an annual is done, either at home, or at the plane's location. Some sellers balk at that, but the good ones don't. There are quite a few mechanics that will travel to do that for you... it's good business for them, as now they're going to get another aircraft to maintain.
I could go on and on with horror stories about pre-buys that were done by the seller's mechanic, but lots of others could go on and on about the same thing having great results... the bottom line is that it's YOUR choice.
JH

[OregonMaule offline]

Thanks again for taking the time to help a new guy. Anybody know an AP who will travel to do a pre buy? Am I better off with an appraisal company? How about an AP/Maule pilot to ferry what I buy back to KTTD Troutdale, NW Oregon. Thanks Zane, Strata Rocketeer, maules.com, qmdv, hardtailjohn, soaringhiggy, By Rocket I go. Regards...Rob

[Berk offline]

...How about an AP/Maule pilot to ferry what I buy back to KTTD Troutdale, NW Oregon...

It's a great time, to be buying your first plane. I'd like to suggest that you fly it back yourself. You'll have some good memories the first long x-country you make in your own bird. If you're not sure that you can be safe in it, consider bringing along a CFI who's current in the type of plane that you buy, and make it your familiarization flight.

I bought my 172 up in Fairbanks, and had the time of my life soloing it back to the lower 48. My first time over the Yukon, and Ak. I got to be fast friends with the ol' straight tail during that journey, and we've been from AK to Mexico since then, and a bunch of other places. Don't have someone else fly the plane back without you. Make a vacation out of picking it up. Allow a week or so, and enjoy the first date in a long, lovely relationship for years to come! Enjoy, Berk

[OregonMaule offline]

Good advice Berk. I agree, I would absolutely be there for the ride. I have yet to be signed off for taildraggers, and high performance. I only have 100 hours so I must be careful. I don't want to bend the new ride. I have been told to be safe I should do 100 take off and landings with a good taildragger instructor.

[Strata Rocketeer offline]

I think 100 takeoffs and landings with an instructor is a very good idea, in as many varied conditions and configurations as possible. This *can* be accomplished in the 10-20 hrs the insurance company will require you to be with an instructor anyway. My instructor/torturer did much the same with me, including crosswind wheel landings with the wind blowing 90 degrees across the runway 15-20, deadstick, off-airport, etc, etc,...it was a real meat grinder.

I'd prefer that my Maule insurance rates not go up any higher than they already are, so don't scrimp on your training.

[Hottshot offline]