Backcountry Pilot

[gpope offline]

Hi folks. I fly a Cessna 180 and do a lot of high altitude survey work out of Bishop, CA. My good old F model will be needing a new engine soon, and, on the advise of a friend, I'm considering upgrading to P-Ponk's Super Eagle engine. I'm wondering if any of you have flown behind one and what your experiences are. Basically the engine is a derated, carbureted, O-520, that will give an increase of 35 to 45 hp over the O-470-R. The extra horsepower could make my life nicer at 15,000, but I'm not willing to trade maintenance/operating costs for a few extra ponies. The new engine has a 2000 hr TBO, which counts for quite bit and P-Ponk says the engine will be smoother and quieter with low compression pistons.
I'd love to hear from anyone that can either confirm or shoot down the claims made.

[delta68 offline]

I dont have one but I know a guy with one in a 182 and myself and the old man who has been doing the annuals on it for a good while love it we just annualed it and it is weird doing a comp check on it and see them that low but it has the cerma crome cylinders and we have talked to the man that builds them and he claims that he stands behind them with good support he is not afraid to talk to you about them for whatever you need.I think if I had a choice i would buy one i have flown the 182 and its a great running engine.Our airport is at a pretty high elevation also 7056 ft.just my 2 cents worth.

[Bonanza Man offline]

A friend of mine has one. Good performance but you have to burn a lot of gas since the Continental fuel distribution system is so poor on the carb'd engine. You can't run lean of peak like I normally do with my IO-520. Another option for you is to install an IO-470, that'll give you 260 HP, another friend has that in his 180. He loves it. You go the same speed as the Pponk on less gas. A set of GAMI injectors and running LOP it's very smooth. Takeoff and climb are the same also.

[delta68 offline]

they are smoother running i think

[SixTwoLeemer offline]

There is an STC from Norland Aircraft in Canada to install a carbureted IO-470 that will slip right into your mount and use all your existing controls.

It achieves its 260hp by way of compression so you have to use 100LL. The advantage of this mod is low cost/low drama and fuel burn of .5 gallons (or slightly less) more than you're used to with an strait 0-470.

Worth checking into.

[gpope offline]

Thanks for the response to my questions. They help me a lot as I try to think this through. Please keep them coming. Given the pricing on the Super Eagle engine, it would be hard to pass it up, but the info on an IO-470 is something I hadn't heard. I'll need to check that out too.

[Splashpilot offline]

There are long threads on this site about the P-Ponk engine conversions. Look under the Modifications thread.

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phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2178&highlight=


I have an O-520/86" 3 blade Mac 401 in my 55 180. I am based over in Columbia, if you want to fly one, PM me and we can meet up so you can try before you buy.

My previous posts said it all,.... AMAZING, WORTH IT, DO IT , and never looked back.

[shortfielder offline]

I have one in a '56 180 and love it. It has around 600SMOH. Trouble free, smooth, great performance, doesn't burn much more fuel in cruise than a 0-470. I have McCauley C-66 with 90-2 blades.

I don't use the extra power often, but nice to know it's there. Great customer support. Wonderful people to deal with.

I think IO engines cost quite abit more to install. ake you quite awhile to realizeany savings in fel. I've heard a lot of people don'tlike tem as much for backcountry flying b ecause if your battery goes dead, tey are hard to start by hand b ecause of the electric fuel pump.

I think there are adantages to getting your power from a low compression engine vs. a high compression engine.

I do most of my flying with friend with a '55 model with the pponk engine and he will agree with everything that I have said here. He as the Hartzell 3 blade scimitar prop. His plane is a little faster than mine. Don't know if it is the prop or rigging.

I get145-150kts. ground speed on gps at 7500'.

Can't say enough good about the engine or the people that build it. Highly recomend it. If I were to build another plane for this type of flying, putting a pponk engine in would be the first thing that I would do.

Gary

[180driver offline]

What's the current cost for the pponk motor? Sounds like I need to upgrade.

[shortfielder offline]

Good choice.

They vary depending on cylinder choice and valve seats. Maybe a few other choices. I went for the larger oil cooler also.

When I got mine about a year and a half ago they were roughly $21-25K with a good core.

You can call 360.629.4812 M-Th PST.

Gary

[gpope offline]

I just talked with Ameritech in Redding, an engine shop licensed by P-Ponk to build the Super eagle engine. It seems there is a problem specific to the O-470-R only, in which the crankshaft may not be able to have 4 counterweights mounted on it. Of course the R engine can be upgraded with a new crank, but that raises the cost and may put it over the top of being an economical upgrade. I need to do more study on this still.

Their prices were pretty steep too, compared with what others have reported. 28K and change, and that doesn't count having to upgrade the crank on the R engine.
Throw in an upgraded prop and the whole package begins to look hard to justify.

[qmdv offline]

I heard about an STC for a 250HP version of the IO470 (Bonanza) to go into a 180 or early 182. anybody knw about that? A bit lower compression than the 260Hp ones in the early 185's and 205's and early 210's

Tim

[Splashpilot offline]

Give Northwest Airmotive a call in McMinnville OR. They installed my O520 after P-Ponk built up my engine.

If I where you, I would have Steve Knapp (owner of P-Ponk) build your engine, then have it installed by a reputable shop. NW Airmotive did an immaculate job and have done ALOT of P-Ponk installs. Their rate is reasonable, considering the beautiful work they do.

What impressed me the most about the whole engine swap is the ridiculous attention to detail Steve Knapp and his crew at P-Ponk give to the engines. You can call him up, they will pull your file, and tell you exactly how many grams each part weights that they intalled. They purposely match pistons and valves for a sewing machine smooth engine. They are VERY confident in thier work, so after the first 1.5 hours on the engine, we pulled the filter, with very minimal metal. Steve told me to fly it the 3.5 hours home at WOT and below 3000', 2500 rpms. Don't baby it.

I have run it almost 500 hours, with oil trend analysis, regular checks, its flawless.

I think you would be VERY happy. After you have it done you will never look back or be sorry you did it I am sure. They have an long excellent reputation.

Just my 2 cents.

[gpope offline]

I finally got to talk with Steve Knopp. Turns out my prop will work fine and his prices are very competitive, so I won't be into this any more than a Reman, which was my other choice. Great people to talk to. I'll buy the engine from him and my mechanic and I can make the swap. Thanks to all of you who responded to my questions. I'm looking forward to it.

[Skydive206 offline]

Texas Skyways has a O-520. Easy install and you would benifit from increased compression ratio over a o-470 or detuned 520. Flying out of bishop and going to alt your engine is wearing out on just friction not power. Increased compression ratio increases power at the same manifold pressure, improves fuel economy, lower egts. I dont know what they want for price.

[Roger S offline]

I heard about an STC for a 250HP version of the IO470 (Bonanza) to go into a 180 or early 182. anybody knw about that? A bit lower compression than the 260Hp ones in the early 185's and 205's and early 210's

Tim

Tim, I haven't heard of that STC, but the one I know about uses the IO-470 with the high compression pistons. (FI changed to Carb) I believe it's the same motor used on early 185's & 205's. Here's the response I got from the STC holder, Norland Aircraft, a couple years ago.

Roger

"Thank you for your inquiry about the 260 hp engine conversion for your Cessna 180 or 182.
Your O-470 engine must be exchanged for an IO-470 series, which is then modified according to our STC. The cost for an IO-470 engine "0" time exchange, for your old O-470 is approximately $1500.00 - $2500.00 more than overhauling the O-470. We can assist you with quotes on engines.
Our STC is for the use of the IO-470-D,-E,-F,-H,-M,-N or -S engine in a modified condition, that is, with the fuel injection system removed and replaced by the carburetion system that is original equipment on the O-470 engine. The IO-470 engine is a high compression version of your original O-470 Continental, requiring 100LL fuel. There is no other change to the fuel system, engine mount, exhaust or cowls."

[MauleOne offline]

Sso what happens when 100LL is no longer available?

[66skylane offline]

If 100ll goes away then the guys running the Norlands will be in the same place as the other guys with high compression pistons. My dad has a Norland in his 180 and it is a great conversion and allowed him to keep the 88" two blade where the Pponk won't. I have a Pponk in my 182 and it is also an awesome conversion but still doesn't let you run auto fuel so if 100ll goes away we with Pponks are are in the same boat as the Norland guys. Dad's 180 and my 182 have flown several hundred hours side by side and the Norland gets better fuel economy than my Pponk but not by much. I believe that's due to the more efficient stroke of the high compression pistions vs low compression pistons. Both great engines.

[chickenair offline]

I just had to throw this tidbit of info into this thread

How many of you knew that "Pponk" is Steve Knopp, the owners, last name spelled backwards?


He inspected my Sportsman when I built it. Nice guy!

[supercub185 offline]

QMDV
I had a 180 that had the IO-470 STC, I think it was for a IO-470 K . I don't remember because when I found out about real airplanes ( Maule and a Waco ) I forgot everything about Cessna's .

I guess you fly lightly loaded? I like maules alot,owned 2. My skywagon with 4 will make any loaded maule look bad when taking off. My supercub just makes them look bad period. Just joking. Maules are good.