Hope to be in the market for a plane someday, leaning towards the -12. any folks with experience with them on wheels (BW), ski's and or floats please chime in. what kinda mods do you have, HP and whats your performance like? what to look for when shopping for one and anything that typically gives this bird its personality.

I just made a few comments on another thread but here goes again. The PA-12 is an excellent aircraft in the weight category. I have flown them with the small engine, 115 HP, I believe, OK on wheels but not good for floats. You need a 150HP or bigger. As before, these planes are old and all, that have been on floats, are rotten. If the lower tubing hasn't been changed it needs to be. They are much roomier than a Super Cub but a little slower. This aircraft has an incredible wing, one of the best. I've seen them haul loads that would be a challenge for a C180. Some have been modified to add flaps, not necessary if you have some stick and rudder skills. They were built with a bungee shock landing gear system. Very good system, very strong and forgiving. You can slide the plane sideways on skis and it will handle it. Takes a bit of an effort at changeover time so some have been changed to Super Cub gear. Less hassle but not as tough.

In my experience they are a little faster then a cub but won't get off quite as short when equipped the same, less AOI on the wing.
The ultimate setup is the crosswinds stol 180hp conversion with the short mount, but it tends to run hot especially on floats and needs a second oil cooler to deal with it. Call Charlie at crosswinds he knows all about 12s and might know where there is some good ones for sale.

Shortfielder has a wag aero 2+2 for sale on here you might want to look at its a copy of a pa14(basically a 12 with two front seats and flaps) I think it's still for sale.

I like the PA12, but as in any Cub they can be a challenge to get in and out of the one door, even with the the seaplane door mod, which would be on my list of necessary items. When docking this can be of some concern, at least for my long legs. I would want the 150 hp. They work fine on skis. I have owned a Super Cub and spend some time in a of PA12, I just can't see that you will have enough room to fufill the mission you layed out in your other thread, I think the PA12 would make a great second plane for you when the whole family is not along.

Steve

thanks guys, realisticly the more i think about it the more likely it'll be just me a couple kids going on the trips, otherwise i'll just shuttle in and out.

PA-12's are wide and pretty comfortable, but tougher to get in and out of with the door post being so far back from the fixed pilot's seat. (and not as easy to hand prop if it still has the stock forward hinged door - compared to a modified clamshell or overhead hinge point with gas strut. I like to prop from behind where I can instantly reach in and control the mixture, mags and power, not in front.)

Nice roll rate and control cables are internal.

I've found that compared to an 18, you have to trim them A LOT. Pretty much every power change.

The one's I've flown also seem a little more squirrely on the ground compared to an 18 or Citabria, but once you're used to it, no biggie.

The fly WAY better light than heavy.

Here's a heavy 160 hp example:





here's a bit lighter 150 hp example:



A bit lighter yet 150 hp airplane



and here is a very light 150 hp example (yes, there is an stc for this mod with the small tail)





and a stock 115 hp PA-12



As mentioned above, need to check the tubing on them if they haven't been replaced before. But good airplane and you'd be happy with one.

The stock PA 12 fuel tanks are terne plate, and major POS. They WILL leak at some point, and nearly impossible to fix well....have to be soldered.

Lots of STCs for the 12 to "improve" it. Bigger engines and flaps would be high on my list if I were going that way. Both help with takeoff, particularly on floats and skis.

The gear is definitely NOT as robust as Super Cub gear. Many have been modified with bracing between the main gear leg and the cabane, but even that is no guarantee that you won't have gear problems in the rough. That is why many convert to Super Cub gear...it is much tougher.

Old airplanes all (they were only built in 1946 and 47), so get someone to take a VERY thorough look prior to plunking down cash.

MTV

Agree with all the above that has been said. Only comment I will make....I have a 7AC-CONV Champ with a Lyc O-235and had looked at a few -12's with this same engine. Being a heavier plane (PA-12) the Champ was the performance winner and I passed on getting the -12. The 12 with the O-235 engine is a great 1-2 person plane when on wheels but would think it might be a pig on floats with any load in it. Definitely find one with the 150 and up engine already installed. Also, as has been said, flaps are over rated except possibly for that little extra lift on take off (useful on floats). When I first got the Champ I was neophyte in regards to slips since all my previous time was flown in planes with flaps. I leaned fairly quickly that a properly flown slip can drop you in on the spot. As you will probably read in your quest for knowledge on these site......get a plane a learn to fly it. After 500+ hours in just my 172 I can fly it closer to that proverbial 'edge' than when I fist started flying it. As time builds the plane just becomes a part of you.

Also the post regarding it being a 70 year old plane weighed a lot on my mind. I seem to recall the tubing in the 12's was of a lower grade then was used in the planes build later. Don't take this as fact.....as I am pulling this out of my CRS mind.

I did my initial flight training in a ratty old duct tape patched PA 12 stock except for the 150 HP. After 25 hrs of flying that one the owner put her on its back duck hunting so I had to switch over to a modded 12 the local flying club had. It had the extended baggage, flaps, droop tips, toe brakes and 150 HP. The flying was pretty similar with the exception of the flaps helping on landing more than take off. That old straight wing would float and float and float! Your speeds needed to be dead on and you better be good at slipping if you wanted to be able to hit the numbers every time. Not a big deal, I loved flying the straight wing as it was actually much lighter on the controls (possibly due to rigging ??) A buddy had a fully modded Cal Center 12 with every wiz bang mod known to man on it and a 180 in the nose. Holy shit I couldn't wait to fly that plane. I was shocked at what a dog it was. Beautiful plane, but flew like crap and when you pulled the power it fell out of the sky worse than my old Pacer on floats! All said and done I had a few hundred hours in 12s and by far the best flying ones I have flown on wheels floats or Ski's was the 2 old straight wing 12s. I think alot of it has to do with weight! All that shiny paint and mods add weight!

You are not going to get a 12 in and out in all the places that a good stick with an 18 is going to be able to go, but do you really need to go to that last 5% of the really nasty places?

At the end of the day, do you really need an 18 to do what you need to do (guiding, really rough work etc.) or are you just looking to wear the big belt buckle?

There are plenty of people around the area that should be able to get you in the air in various types of planes and show you what they can do. Then you can make an informed decision based on your experience with them instead of ours.

great info guys! i'm positive i DON"T want a -18. i have no desire to fly into those places that that plane is needed to operate in and out of. not what i'm looking to do. looking for enough room to carry me and 2 people with minimal gear, but enough power/weight ratio to get in and out of remote dirt strips without having to hit the ground doing 60mph and standing on the brakes to keep outa the brush at the end.
i guess i'm not really convinced i'll need flaps, enjoyed avidflyers post on his straight wing, i grew up behind my ol' man in his J3 so saw alot of the straight wing, his plane would be great but quiet a bit under powered for carrying very much. thought about a PA-11 with a 100hp but figured i'd rather have the option of being able to do something in one trip in stead of two...

Another VERY underated plane (imo) and well within your price range is the Pacer. If you get a 150 pacer up here with a climb prop you can haul 2 people and gear in some pretty damn tight strips. On floats... well.... stick with the 12 unless you go for the long wing etc. on a pacer.

I've got a PA-12, with all kinds of mods - O-360, flaps, 3' extended supercub gear, skylight, extended baggage, etc. Some of the comments in the posts above are more urban legend than fact. I can get the PA-12 in & out of the same places that a PA-18 can get to. If I really needed the extra 15 feet it would take the -12 to take off on a short strip compared to an -18, maybe I shouldn't have landed there to begin with. The performance difference between a PA-12 and PA-18, similarly equipped is negligible. Getting in and out of a -12 is different than an -18, but not harder. The best mod I made was the 180 hp Crosswinds engine, and no, it does not run hot. My 180hp burns 1-2 gph less than similar PA-18 with a 150 hp engine at the same cruise speed. I've had the O-235 & the O-320 (150 hp) engines on my -12 and there's no substitute for horsepower. It's a breeze to fly and handles well on the ground. The flaps are nice, but slips work just as well, even with flaps. If you're going to buy a PA-12, get one that's equipped the way you want it, it'll be less $$ and hassle than adding desired mods a-la-carte.
My 2 cents.
windy

akavidflyer wrote:Another VERY underated plane (imo) and well within your price range is the Pacer. If you get a 150 pacer up here with a climb prop you can haul 2 people and gear in some pretty damn tight strips. On floats... well.... stick with the 12 unless you go for the long wing etc. on a pacer.

I know where there's an awesome Pacer for sale in Oregon......

While the PA 18 is the gold standard for Piper off airport action there are many PA 12's doing well in the same enviroment. Just make sure if you buy one that you know something about it's 67 year old fuselage. All the tube airplanes from that era are losing the battle with father time. Univair is the only source for a new fuselage and it will come with a big price. 150 hp, balanced tail are the must haves, all the others depending on your needs. All PA 12's are great airplanes to me.

Highroad's Pacer has more money in MODS and is a heck of a first plane.