5 on board, rescue trying to reach them Now...looks like all OK but spent night up there with out any gear.........




Sounds like they are still up there. Rescue is trying to ski up the glacier into the storm, but have only made 1.5 miles since their drop off. Privately owned Cherokee.

http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=12951909

condition


Five people stranded on Knik Glacier after their airplane crashed Sunday afternoon report that they are in good condition and spirits as they await a ground-based search team climbing to them in near white-out conditions this afternoon, according to the Alaska National Guard.

Communications with the five had been interrupted since about 1 p.m. Sunday, when they reported they had crashed 8,500 feet up the glacier some 44 miles southeast of Palmer. No one was injured, according to the Federal Aviation Administration.

But blizzardlike conditions and low-hanging clouds so far have thwarted a rescue and attempts to drop supplies to the people, who had been out for a short flightseeing trip and did not have survival gear or heavy clothes, said Maj. Guy Hayes, a spokesman for the Guard.

Late this afternoon, the crew was able to reach a C-130 by radio and report that they were safe in cabin of the PA-32 aircraft, Hayes said.

"Everybody is in good condition and in good spirits," Hayes said. "They're currently still in white-out conditions up there. The wind's blowing pretty good, but the temperatures inside the aircraft were holding at about 50 degrees."

The pilot, 49-year-old Donald Erbey, had taken his father's PA-32 out for a short tour of the glacier with four friends from Texas, said his mother, Beverly Erbey, of Palmer. After getting word Sunday afternoon that the airplane's emergency locator beacon had alerted, another pilot flew into the area and contacted the group by radio, she said.

Her son reported that everyone was OK and that the aircraft had crashed into a snowbank during bad weather, she said.

"He said that he was starting to get into bad weather and so he started making a turn-around to go back when he hit a downdraft," Beverly Erbey said. "Don told them that the plane was not flyable but that it was intact."

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The C-130 and an HH-60 helicopter have been and will continue circling the area waiting for a break in the weather that would allow a rescue, Hayes said. Cloud cover has stretched from the ground to 13,000 feet, with winds gusting to 70 mph and sustained between 35 and 40 mph, the Guard reported.

Meanwhile, four pararescuemen on skis have advanced to within a mile of the site with two sleds of supplies that the Guard dropped Sunday about four miles from the site, Hayes said.

If a rescue isn't possible tonight, the crew will supply the party with clothes, food and other items until an aerial rescue can be attempted, he said.

Paul, Lots of action up your way. Now I see they crashed a Blackhawk trying to rescue the 5. They are all still up on the glacier.
http://www.adn.com/2010/08/10/1404134/w ... ivors.html

Wow!! This kind of reminds me of my friend Bill and 5 other people that crashed in a helicopter on a Glacier outside of Juneau some years ago. All lived. Two rescue helicopters (company helicopters) also crashed in the ordeal. It was an incredible story that was made into a documentary. I'll try to put it all together and post.

I found the NTSB.GOV report: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060606X00685&key=1

58Skylane wrote:Two rescue helicopters (company helicopters) also crashed in the ordeal.

It was that series of crashes that finally woke Feds and operators up to the fact that pilots, especially new AK commercial pilots, needed specific white-out training. That stuff will kill ya dead in a big, big hurry.

Gump

sounds like they could use a "don sheldon" guy right about now...that guy used to pull off landings at 14000...quite a book if u get a chance...wager with the wind, i think...jo

GumpAir wrote:

58Skylane wrote:Two rescue helicopters (company helicopters) also crashed in the ordeal.

It was that series of crashes that finally woke Feds and operators up to the fact that pilots, especially new AK commercial pilots, needed specific white-out training. That stuff will kill ya dead in a big, big hurry.

Gump

You knew of that series of events? Crazy story!! I'm trying to find a video of the documentary right now. I'm not even sure if there is one on the Net.

My friend Bill, his parents, his girl friend and another couple were passengers in the first helicopter that flew into the white out condition. If I remember right, the pilot was a newbie, not IFR rated, but flying a helicopter that was IFR equipped (not that that may have prevented the accident anyway if the pilot was IFR rated). During the investigations (and law suits), information about how the tour company handled the accident came out and the not so good safety record came out in the open, too.

It's a shame that some company's decide to operate that way. It sure F ed up the lives of my friends!! Bill was a very intelligent person that had his own very successful machine/fabricating shop. After the accident, he went off the deep end (well, he was about normal for about a year or two). I myself and a few other friends tried like hell to help him. But he was beyond help. He lost everything! His house, his property in Trabuco Canyon, his business, and sadly, he lost his friends. Bill's girlfriend was also very intelligent and had a great job. She too went off the deep end.

This story is about the main reason why I'll probably never go up in a helicopter. I don't know......maybe this story F ed me up, too.

Shit... Fixed wing pilots have been dying in whiteout conditions in AK, Canada, anywhere you have the light conditions pretty much since airplanes have existed. It's not a problem unique to rotorcraft. It's evil stuff and takes some real discipline and specific training to function safely in that environment.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Shit... Fixed wing pilots have been dying in whiteout conditions in AK, Canada, anywhere you have the light conditions pretty much since airplanes have existed. It's not a problem unique to rotorcraft. It's evil stuff and takes some real discipline and specific training to function safely in that environment.

Gump

Hey gump, I am curious about this white out flying. What is the discipline and training you talk about?

My numskull guess is be disciplined enough not to try VFR in white out. Training ahhh ahhh IFR???

Kind of weird skiing in white out. Standing still and just fall over. doh

am south for the week, missed some things, some I wish could change. Terry Smith, pilot of GCI otter was friend and good man,Great Pilot, retired Alaska Airlines guy. His son inlaw went down last week on C117. Along with Bill, John, Paul and month or so back Neal this makes 6 good men with loads of talent, family and friends....... Great loss , Big Void left. Makes me sick....... Know several GCI people, this past year has been hard on them too as lost several other people in accidents. Prayers to All the Families and Friends Hope somehow some since cant be made out of all this, I personally can't find any right now. Terry's daughter lost a husband and a father within a weeks span. Great sorrow


As for glacier Party, I hear "HOPPERCHOPPER" ( GRANDSON'S Word) slid, tipped over? Now 12 stuck there..... Been all over that ice, some of it can be very unfriendly, Got stuck up there myself one winter, didn't have any company though. Was cold all night in spite of good gear, Great Light Show ! Ride home the next afternoon. Guess they will all be home tomorrow.

Be Safe Guys, I'm damn tired of this.................


p

Guess it's 11 Not 12.......

Associated Press - August 10, 2010 10:54 PM ET

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) - A helicopter taking rescuers to a group of sightseers stranded on a glacier in Alaska has rolled over on the icy field.

Officials say there are no reported injuries among the three crew members aboard the Alaska Army National Guard UH-60 Black Hawk that slid and rolled on Knik Glacier Tuesday afternoon.

The crew was trying to rescue five people stranded on the glacier since their small plane apparently crashed Sunday.

Maj. Guy Hayes says the helicopter is heavily damaged. Another helicopter and HC-130 Hercules aircraft has been dispatched to the scene, roughly 40 miles northeast of Anchorage.

Rescuers skied across a glacier in whiteout conditions Monday to bring food, water and blankets to the Alaska pilot and four visitors. The gro

RobBurson wrote:Hey gump, I am curious about this white out flying. What is the discipline and training you talk about?
My numskull guess is be disciplined enough not to try VFR in white out.

The discipline is in going to and staying on the gauges and ignoring the physical sensations (leans), even though you think you can see what's outside. The human brain does a shit poor job of interpreting visual cues in whiteouts, and tries real hard to turn you sideways.

Can't tell you guys the number of times I've been flogging along with my ear screwed to my shoulder, head leaning completely over, brain screaming at me to ignore the attitude indicator, and wanting to turn the airplane up on a wingtip, thinking a row of willow along a creek was the actual horizon.

For those that have never experienced it, closest thing I can think about that is similar, is depth perception over big water in glassy conditions. Again, you need discipline and specific technique to function there.

Gump

Never been in a whiteout but....

....I guess we are really talking about vertigo? Had a couple similiar experiences when I was a kid. Flying a T/Beech from IND to EVV on a mail run in the middle of the night. VFR, chrystal clear but flying somewhat parallel and angling toward the backside of the front. The clouds associated with the moving front were smooth and angled up and away from my position 90 degrees from my path of flight. The stars were bright above and the ground lights sparkled like stars against the black earth.

Suddenly....I thought that I was in about a 90 degree bank to the left....confusing the angle of the cloud deck and the surface lights with that of the natural horizon and the stars. As Gump said....took all my willpower to go on the gauges( even in VFR conditions actually) and convince myself that I was actually straight and level. Having the experience in a white out must be far more extreme.

The guy that I was flying with in the T/Beech was a former AirForce/Navy/Coast Guard and current Army Reserve pilot....qualified in everything from Learjets to DC-3s, B-25's, seaplanes and many helicopters. When in the AirForce he had flown Helicopter 1 for Pres. Eisenhower. So he was no flunky. Anyhow he told me that he was flying a helicopter back in the 50s under the same conditions we had just experienced in the T/Beech. He said that he and his copilot were so confused by the vertigo that they decided to bail out. At the last minute he was able to regain his senses and continue on. Good thing that the President wasn't on board then huh?

A year or so before the T/Beech incident I was patrolling pipelines in a Citabria. Ceiling was about 200 ft. vis was maybe 500 ft. forward....I am 50 feet above the hills of southern Indiana. I know it sounds stupid but I and other pipeline pilots patrolled under such conditions. Anyhow suddenly I flew into a fog bank and forward vis went to zero. I could see straight down and so I started a left banked turn to fly back out of the fog bank. That must be very similiar to a whiteout. As I began the turn, looking straight down with zero forward vis. I experienced vertigo for the first time in my life. Suddenly I felt very warm, fuzzy and euphoric. There was a strong sensation of leaving my body...gently floating away. Consiously I recall thinking...."I am dying." "It is a nice feeling....I don't mind dying."

Then just as quickly I snapped out of it and thought ..."hell no I don't want to die." Then I began to talk to myself......"level the wings, add power, pitch up...begin to climb, transition to instrument flight." Who cares if I climb into the clouds without a clearance. If I don't I am going to die. So my head cleared as I went on instruments, aircraft under control and climbing above the terrian.

I knew the area and terrian well...so I climbed to 2,000ft. in the clouds and cruised south into a clearing area and decended once again into VFR conditions. I was so whipped that I landed in a farmers clover field.....took a leak, calmed myself....then took off again and resumed patrolling.

Back then....by luck bag was full but my experience bag was empty. 40 years later my experience bag is full....but my luck bag is empty. Let's all be careful and yet have fun.

Bob

Well said Gump, that is how it happens.
The problem is manifested in helicopters because the whiteout can occur in the hover to landing. It can happen real fast, and over on the side you go. Even a nice weather day can turn bad with fluffy snow on the LZ.

58Skylane wrote:

GumpAir wrote:

58Skylane wrote:Two rescue helicopters (company helicopters) also crashed in the ordeal.

It was that series of crashes that finally woke Feds and operators up to the fact that pilots, especially new AK commercial pilots, needed specific white-out training. That stuff will kill ya dead in a big, big hurry.

Gump

You knew of that series of events? Crazy story!! I'm trying to find a video of the documentary right now. I'm not even sure if there is one on the Net.

My friend Bill, his parents, his girl friend and another couple were passengers in the first helicopter that flew into the white out condition. If I remember right, the pilot was a newbie, not IFR rated, but flying a helicopter that was IFR equipped (not that that may have prevented the accident anyway if the pilot was IFR rated). During the investigations (and law suits), information about how the tour company handled the accident came out and the not so good safety record came out in the open, too.

It's a shame that some company's decide to operate that way. It sure F ed up the lives of my friends!! Bill was a very intelligent person that had his own very successful machine/fabricating shop. After the accident, he went off the deep end (well, he was about normal for about a year or two). I myself and a few other friends tried like hell to help him. But he was beyond help. He lost everything! His house, his property in Trabuco Canyon, his business, and sadly, he lost his friends. Bill's girlfriend was also very intelligent and had a great job. She too went off the deep end.

This story is about the main reason why I'll probably never go up in a helicopter. I don't know......maybe this story F ed me up, too.

Sorry to hear about your friend. Sad story. Could have just as easily of happened on a highway though, as it does many times every day.

Coastal Helicopters was a good company, having a real bad day. I know Jim Wilson personally, who owned the show at the time. He is old school Juneau, and one hell of a pilot. He was the guy you called when you were sick and dying and no one else would come. They were the guys you called when you needed your airplane slung into town after you bent it. I'm sure his company paid dearly for their mistakes that day. Not long after that whole mess, Coastal put in a multi-thousand dollar full - sized simulator used for white - out training purposes that all of the local helicopter tour companies now use.

Pilots are not required to be IFR rated in helicopters to fly part 135. Also, helicopters have lower weather minimums than fixed wing. The life expectancy for an unprepared helicopter entering IMC is a few seconds, where in an airplane you are expected to live 30 seconds or so before you are spiraling to the ground.

Crap weather ain't nothing to be screwing around with, in any case.

gb

Hope the best for all involved up there in Alaska. Been a bad few weeks. Talking about 0 Vis conditions I found this. Might have been mentioned before.

"How long can a pilot who has little or no instrument training expect to live after flying into bad weather and loses visual contact? Researchers at the University of Illinois found the answer to this question. Twenty student "guinea pigs" flew into simulated instrument weather, and all went into graveyard spirals or roller coasters. The outcome differed in only one respect - the time required till control was lost.The interval ranged from 480 seconds to 20 seconds. The average time was 178 seconds - two seconds short of three minutes.
Here's the fatal scenario:
The sky is overcast and the visibility is poor. That reported five mile visibility looks more like two, and you can't judge the height of the overcast. Your altimeter tells you that you are at 1,500 feet, but your map tells you that there's local terrains high as 1,200 feet. There might be a tower because you're not sure just how far off course you are. But you've flown in worse weather than this, so you press on.
You find yourself unconsciously easing back just a bit on the controls to clear those none-too-imaginary towers. With no warning, you're in the soup. You peer so hard into the milky white mist that your eyes hurt. You fight the feeling in your stomach. You try to swallow, only to find your mouth dry. Now you realize you should have waited for better weather. The appointment was important, but not all that important. Somewhere a voice is saying, "You've had it. It's all over!"
You now have 178 seconds to live. Your aircraft feels on an even keel but your compass turns slowly. You push a little rudder and add a little pressure on the controls to stop the turn but this feels unnatural and you return the controls to their original position This feels better but now your compass is turning a little faster and your airspeed is increasing slightly. You scan your instruments for help but what you see looks somewhat unfamiliar. You're sure this is just a bad spot. You'll break out in a few minutes. (But you don't have a few minutes left.)
You now have 100 seconds to live. You glance at your altimeter and you are shocked to see it unwinding. You're already down to 1,200 feet. Instinctively you pull back on the controls but the altimeter still unwinds. The engine is into the red and the airspeed nearly so.
You have 45 seconds to live.
Now you're sweating and shaking. There must be something wrong with the controls; pulling back only moves the airspeed indicator farther into the red. You can hear the wind tearing at the aircraft.
You have 10 seconds to live.
Suddenly you see the ground. The trees rush up at you. You can see the horizon if you turn your head far enough, but it's at a weird angle - you're almost inverted. You open your mouth to scream, but you have no seconds left!!"

Wow,

So true. Just reading it made me shiver!

Bob

Me too !!!

I've lost several friends as well as my best friend to these type conditions, SouthEast Alaska is a bitch for fog and low clouds.

My best friend went into a spring snow squall that was less than a mile wide, there were planes circling on both the north and south sides waiting for the squall to breakup. He went in, just to take a look and never came out again. He was instrument qualified in a good instrument ship but it is so very difficult to transition from VFR to IFR when you are not ready for it.

I have also had some pretty bad vertigo when scuba diving. Especially when catching crab or spearing halibut. You can stir up a cloud of silt so thick and so fast that you have absolutely no idea which way is up,down or sideways. At least in the water all you have to do is stop thrashing around and take a deep breath, you will go up Can''t do that in a plane can we

I practice a timed turn every once in a while cause that is what I do if I get into this shit, turn left needle in the house, count the time and roll level until I come out. Scare the holey crap out of me every time it happens.