dirtstrip wrote:Tadpole, Are you no longer with CC ?

Tuesday will be my last day. We don't like Yakima and the job isn't fantastic enough to keep me here. Actually if the job was in Colorado I'd probably still be leaving. Probably moving back to Colorado in the new year.

We are in the 0-70k a year range. The key I have found to having affordable toys is a mixture of buying used, but in decent shape, with fuel efficiency. Example; Our Taylorcraft is a 65hp ( =4gph), two snowmachines his: 97 Polaris XLT, hers: 06 Summit 550, car is a 4cyl 91 Forerunner. None are gas hogs. My rule of thumb (for now), is nothing bigger than an O-200.

Tadpole wrote:

dirtstrip wrote:Tadpole, Are you no longer with CC ?

Tuesday will be my last day. We don't like Yakima and the job isn't fantastic enough to keep me here. Actually if the job was in Colorado I'd probably still be leaving. Probably moving back to Colorado in the new year.

Colorado Springs ?

182 STOL driver wrote:

Tadpole wrote:

dirtstrip wrote:Tadpole, Are you no longer with CC ?

Tuesday will be my last day. We don't like Yakima and the job isn't fantastic enough to keep me here. Actually if the job was in Colorado I'd probably still be leaving. Probably moving back to Colorado in the new year.

Colorado Springs ?

Most likely. There is a chance we'll be going to Anchorage though.

First aircraft was 1/6 partner in a 1965 Bellanca Viking project (25K project). Took a year to rebuild but lead partner was an IA & wood wing expert. Flew it 165 hrs and got my commercial and instrument. Loved that airplane. At engine OH time partnership dissolved and plane was sold to new owner. Partnership worked fine.

Second airplane was 1/5 partner in 1973 C-182. (16K buy-in). Even nicer than the Viking. Very good partnership and it is still going. Sold my share and bought plane #3.

Third airplane was Maule M5 project. Bought flying project from Maule factory. Flew it 165 hrs and then rebuilt. With rebuild costs probably have a bit more in plane than it's worth but also probably one of nicest 1976 M5's out there now. Have a single partner in this plane which works well. Price of fuel is making it hard to fly as much as I'd like. Also will need a new engine soon so will need to make hard choices again.

Partnership's have worked well for me. I live on private airstrip with my own hanger but still can't really justify solo cost of high perform aircraft. Will probably always have partnership unless I get unexpectedly rich or downsize to smaller plane. Hard to do after flying High Perf planes. Use most of CFI fees I make to pay for fuel and A/C maint.

I agree with all of the above. Cash is king if you have the discipline to stick to that plan. My own plan was not to fall in love with any plane. Period. I have bought and spruced up 6 as of now. Try to buy them low, renovate for a couple years then move on. Some I only made a couple grand, some a lot more. Kept dumping that money back into the next one and start again. That was in the salad days pre 2009 or so. Whole nother game now. Its a buyers market for sure.

From a pure business perspective, its been a long time since planes were at the price point they are now. Couple that with extremely attractive interest rates, this is a really good time to finance an airplane. With some legwork, there is money out there at 2.5%. Something to consider, as this cycle wont last, they never do.

JIm

In my case, I'm a retired air traffic controller, but my ex got enough of my pension that I couldn't afford to fly. So I started a second career, making next to nothing, but enjoying it. I wanted a plane that could take me and my wife into backcountry strips. I ended up saving for a Zenith CH701 kit, and building it in my garage after work in the afternoons. Saved more till I could find a good used motor. We've been flying it a year now, and loving it. It isn't very fast, but I haven't found a strip yet that it won't easy get in and out of at full gross. The best part is, it burns a little less than 4GPH of unleaded premium doing it, and I do all the maintenance and annuals. Added bonus is, no medical required. If it weren't for this inexpensive little ticket to the backcountry, I'd be just reading you guys' stories and daydreaming. I really feel blessed, and there's a lot to be said for living within your means, and flying what you can afford.

Poll thus far: 74 paid cash, 28 financed. That's a ratio of 2.64:1. The number of posts are overwhelmingly stories of financial discipline, frugality, and pride of having paid cash. Not many have chimed in with stories of having financed their aircraft, which isn't surprising. The silence is deafening, and there is a modern stigma about using credit.

Not that it's anyone's business, I was just curious. Congrats to everyone who owns their stuff outright-- no one can take it away from you now but the divorce/bankruptcy/tax courts.

Someone mentioned that now is a great time to finance because money is so cheap, 3% interest rates can be had. That might sound attractive, but a few years back when I was trying to refinance my 170, I ran into the "old plane" stonewall. There were very few lenders willing to lend on older, used aircraft. It was kinda scary, and my credit union loan officer simply laughed at the mention of airplanes... "haha, yeah... we don't do that."

Financing makes more sense when you're a business and you can itemize and crunch the numbers so that it works out, plus you don't have all your capital tied up in a single asset. The aircraft has a higher overall operating cost because of it, but capital management is just a part of doing business. For the hobbyist, financing is less practical as it means you've spent far more on your bird in the end than it's worth. Same for any automobile, but new auto financing is far more competitive.

I had a friend, who is a securities manager and financial planner tell me once: "You have to stop thinking of your assets and your debts as individual cases, they're all part of the same system and the bottom line is what matters."

It's a great time to buy right now, unfortunately that might not change for sometime. But buying now and paying interest might be better than waiting a few years and paying a higher purchase price.
At least that is how I would try to sell it to my wife.

It's all a matter of perspective Terry. In the early '90s airplanes were quite a bit cheaper than they are now. I paid $23K for my very nice '67 Mooney C model in 1990. Low time engine and new paint & interior, but crappy in the radio department. I'm just guessing but I think the over-all GA fleet is in better shape today than it was back then. Lot's of airplanes came up for sale with runout engines and pretty crappy radios then. Narco tube type radios were the norm. Radios are incomparably improved today. In the '60s and '70s most used airplanes other than Bonanzas and twins were under $15K. Cars were $3K new. So there used to be an old rule of thumb that went like this. You can buy a nice used airplane for the price of a nice new car. I don't think that's quite right today. Now I think you can buy a nice used airplane for the price of a couple of nice new cars. It all depends on how we define "nice" I guess. Diesel Pickups are equivalent to a C 185 you think? The pickup is cheaper. Lot's cheaper.

We are on airplane number 6. The first was a timed out $19000 172. We've put sweat and money into all 6. Lots of time "under the supervision of". Radios, paint and overhauls. Number 6 is a 206. We were only able to buy because the seller had done all the good stuff, new motor, bladders, radios and HD gear. He left the rest ugly to haul dead moose and meat bombs. After a tanked economy and no more hunters or jumpers, we got it cheap enough to feel guilty. Then, a summer of 120 hour weeks to provide funds from the job and sweat at the hangar and the interior is as pretty as anything I've flown in. Next is some paint and lots of flying. It's not a long term keeper because I can't feed it really but we're hoping for a good TD trade. Otherwise it's well used cars and Craigslist furniture and I love our country and aviation in it!

Zane,
Just to comment on your last post with refernce to financing....I think one of the easiest ways for some one looking at 'older' planes is to finance these days is to use a 'line of credit' type loan, if a person has any equity of course. I have paid cash for every plane I have purchased with the exception of the last one. I used my line of credit instead of using cash because I was getting a better return on my investment money than I have to pay on interest with my line of credit loan. So my reasoning was I am coming out ahead by doing it the way I did.
Keith

WWhunter wrote:I used my line of credit instead of using cash because I was getting a better return on my investment money than I have to pay on interest with my line of credit loan. So my reasoning was I am coming out ahead by doing it the way I did.
Keith

That's exactly what I was getting at. Sometimes best to not blow all your liquidity.

So that's what my ex-wife took with her when we parted! Liquidity??
That explains how come I'm still working up here where it's all frozen!! Liquidity I mean!? I think?
GT

I had to borrow 4k from a friend to get my first C150, Had it paid off in 6 months. Made money with it (flight instruction) fixed it up and sold it for more. Took the money and went to Mojave Desert Bank and deposited the cash and told the banker that I was going to come back and get a loan for a 182. Bank went for it, and did the same with the 182 (flight instruction and Skydiving). Next was a CU206, had to put up the house for that one. Paid it off and still have the plane. Found a bank to finance the 2nd CU206F when they were lending money to everyone, have a balloon payment due soon on it and trying to refinance the balance now. My dad sold me his Twin Otter and U206 on a personal loan. Made money with them both, sold the Otter paid off the loan and kept the 206 and 3 PT6-20s. Its been a lot of hard work, never missed a payment to anyone, stressful sometimes, some luck and had to work harder when the luck ran out. These planes were purchased for a business reason and the idea was that they would pay for themselves and I get to enjoy them. Paid cash or built my other planes (exp). Paid cash for all our cars.

My story starts with getting my PPL when I was 17 and loving to fly. I went to College and thought about an aviation career, but to me Engineering was easier - no struggling at the start, just get a job when you graduate. I was fortunate to get a job with McDonnell Douglass making good $ and got married and got my husband a job there too. We talked about building a plane which he really wanted to do, but that never came to be. (Turns out he is afraid of small airplanes). Bought my first airplane a Pitts S-1C when I had enough money to pay cash, but didn't. Got a loan from Bank Votaw (Parents) and keep my $ working for me. Kept that airplane for 10 years, lots of fun, lots of contests, and one engine re-build where the hanger owner where I rented was an A&I and he did most of the work for me. (I just did what he told me to). Sold the airplane after 3 kids and no time to fly, when I could go the the airplane it was more maintenance than flying. I didn't want to be one of those 10 hours a year unsafe pilots, so I stopped (not quit) flying for 10 years. Then the kids were older and in school (I retired to raise my own kids when the oldest was born), my husband was making good $ so started looking for another. Then several life things happened at once. My husband was the one always getting us into credit, always wanted a bigger house, bigger car etc.... So... that was falling apart. Then my Dad died, followed by my Grandfather (Dad's Dad - gave up when Dad died from cancer) and I inherited some money. Bought the CubCrafter S2, and again could have paid for it but financed because it was the better decision. Side note: agreed to do a lease back to someone I originally trusted to appease the soon to be ex. He turned out to be a bad egg and had to get my airplane to safety - think moving it in the middle of the night. He sued me and I had to pay him off. I just consider that to be a cost of the divorce. Sooo anywho before I bought the airplane i re-upped my currency, recertified my CFI and now I teach tailwheel and have the airplane as a business. I don't teach full time (still have a minor at home), but enough to break even for all my flying and get a good tax write off. Side note 2: I had to take the house in the divorce, didn't want it, but with the kids and such it made more sense, big house, big mortgage payment, and that was right before the real estate crash of 2008.... When the ex left, so did all the debt except for the house.

So now I own my own airplane and business and my flying is for free. Worked out for the best.

pokette wrote: Bought my first airplane a Pitts S-1C when I had enough money to pay cash, but didn't.

That's the first time I've heard of that. Way to go. What's the military aircraft in your photo gallery?

That's a U-10 (Helio Courier)

Well I financed my CC cub. I really like flying it but I do wish it was paid for.
My plan for finances is pretty simple, spend a little less than u make and stay married. The rest is just details.

.... In this day and age, the second part of my plan takes a lot of work and commitment, doesn't just happen.