Don't forget to put it into Shortfield.com when you get it built!

85hp taylorcraft is faster and will take off shorter than a champ/chief or 150 and with extended baggage is not a bad traveling machine, they do lack leg/head room though.

MBDiagMan wrote:
Would a 65HP Chief suffice for my short field or would it need to be an 85HP?

Depends on temperature and the empty weight of your Chief, and how much you and your instructor weigh. A 1400 pound gross weight Chief, on a warm day, with a tired A-65... not recommended on a 1100 foot strip. Light weight, cool day, no problem. 85 is better of course, but costs a bit more. Well worth it if you find one under 20K.

Well, I may have come across something. I talked to a guy today who is a flight instructor and an A&P at an airport about 55 or 60 miles away. He is currently finishing up work on a C140A. It has a 100HP low time engine with 4,000 hours total time. He says that it's a really nice airplane with a climb prop and suggested Vortex Generators if the field turns out shorter than I expect. It would have a fresh annual and be ready to start flying heavily at time of purchase.

He was planning on putting in a lot of panel and asking $28,000, but said he would sell it for $22,000 with no radios and give me the flight instruction I need to get my license back and help me get comfortable on a grass strip of which they have one at his home airport. It's rural, cruise control driving, so that shouldn't be too bad going back and forth.

The pipeline is coming through in May so I won't be able to bring an airplane home before Fall probably, maybe even next Spring. Should this deal work out I will have to hanger it over there until I can bring it home. Rent hangers are hard, no impossible, to come by at my local airport, but I don't know about where this plane is located. It looks like this could end up hinging on the storage issue. It would give me time to get a hanger built, and just generally get ready to bring home the baby.

He said the plane would be ready in about a week and offered to give me a demonstration flight and fly up to my place to look over my proposed strips from the air and tell me what he thinks. If nothing else, I can get a couple hours of time and get started getting my hands on controls again.

This site is great. You guys are a very helpful bunch and good to converse with. Please keep the comments coming.

Doc

How about a Kitfox? side-by-side seating, LSA, STOL capable, trailerable, folding wings, wide range of engine makes and hp


http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=search

The Kitfox is IMHO perhaps the only airplane smaller and less roomy than the T-craft... I think this guy wants to KEEP his wife

The Kitfox is IMHO perhaps the only airplane smaller and less roomy than the T-craft... I think this guy wants to KEEP his wife

LOL true. For a side-by-side seater, the Kitfox is kinda cramped.

I wouldn't over look a good Kitfox. Unless you are pretty big folks, they are comfortable I think - even some of the earlier models. If you could find a decent Model IV with a Rotax 912 4-stroke 80hp (which I think is feasible), it is an great look, inexpensive plane to operate that would have absolutely no issues with two folks on a 1100 strip. Even a 500 ft strip with fairly clear approach and proficiency. Good legs for a 200mp flight at 100-110mph.

EZFlap wrote:The Kitfox is IMHO perhaps the only airplane smaller and less roomy than the T-craft... I think this guy wants to KEEP his wife

I think they are pretty darn close to the same in width. I know have flown with myself (when I was 220#) and another 260#er in my Avid HH and yes, you ahve to be good friends, but It was not any worse than flying in a buddies T crate.

I'm getting close to the demonstration flight in the C140A. I have found hanger availability at the airport where he is located and also at an airport closer to home and more importantly in the town where my wife works. Hangering the airplane until the pipeline is finished and my strip(s) is in will not be a stumbling block.

I saw a negative comment on here about the 140A being a beer can. I think it was MauleWaco making the comment, but I'm not completely sure. I would be interested in hearing your elaboration on this. What specifically are the negatives you see in this airplane? Is it a corrosion concern due to the metal wing? A performance concern regarding the metal wing? Or is it some other shortcoming that you see in the 140A.

I am very interested in knowing all I can before possibly taking a leap into this airplane.

Also, does anyone have any comments regarding the 100HP in the plane I will be looking at as opposed to a 90HP version? Will this really decrease the required take off distance noticably? For 1,200 feet with a 50' obstacle would this be adequate. Robw56 proved his 120 to be plenty good enough for a field this short, but his was 125HP (I think.)

I appreciate very much all the great feedback and respectful discussion on this forum.

With a short strip you will probably want the 100HP engine instead of the stock 85. The 140 is a perfectly good airplane, just like all the other ones listed. They used to be considered a little more valuable, but now that they (stupidly) don't fit in the LSA category they are a little less valuable than the others.

The big aerodynamic difference (not so big, really) is that the 140 has a semi-symmetrical airfoil (NACA 2415) as opposed to the flat-bottom (Clark Y, USA-35, etc.) of the Champs, Chiefs, Cub derivatives, etc. By all rights the 2415 will h ave a little bit less max lift, meaning you cannot fly it as slowly. However the differences at these weights and speeds are small. Now the T-craft has the 23012 airfoil which is also semi-symmetrical but I think it has a little better aspect ratio or wing area, so it makes up for it.

All that techno-nonsense aside, a 100HP C-140 with a climb prop and the VG's on the wings will more than likely operate just fine out of your strip. A tired 85HP 140 with no VG's and no climb prop may be a little more sluggish in the STOL department than you want.

I'm biased toward the T-craft, which is not one of your top choices... so the very best thing is to get with the 140 experts and learn from them whether it is the right airplane for you. But humor me, also go flly an 85 or 100 HP Aeronca Chief before you make your final choice and plunk down money. If you really want to make the best decision, have your instructor fly with you in both the 140 and a Chief, with the same amount of power, and see what he/she says.

EZFlap wrote:....The big aerodynamic difference (not so big, really) is that the 140 has a semi-symmetrical airfoil (NACA 2415) .....

I believe that the strutted-wing Cessna's all use the 2412 airfoil.

MBDiagMan wrote:.....does anyone have any comments regarding the 100HP in the plane I will be looking at as opposed to a 90HP version? ....

You might ask this same question on a Cub forum, or on the C120/140 Club forum. From what I understand, the 90 would be preferable to the O-200 for STOL work. Same displacement, 201 ci, but the 90 is cammed better for pulling power and the legal props are more suited for STOL op's than the 69" you'd be limited to with the O-200. A stroked C85 (O-200 crank & pistons) would be preferable to the O-200 also, for the same reasons (cam & prop).

The C-140 A model is a delightful little airplane. It is, for all intents and purposes, identical to an early Cessna 150, except with a tailwheel. Understand that as to the "beer can" analogy, you could sling the same sort of nonsense at a fabric airplane by using the "paper bag" analogy. Neither is true or appropriate

Go fly with the fellow in the 140A. You need to VERY carefully observe the aircraft's performance with him flying it, assuming he's an average to decent pilot in it. Then make your decision as to whether the performance will meet your needs. Do some measurements on the airport you use during the demo flight, and use those to judge performance.

Remember, those little airplanes are MUCH more severely impacted by high density altitude than higher performance planes are, so consider what the density altitude will do to your performance.

I think you'll find that the 140A is not a spectacular performer, but it may do what you want it to do.

The 140 A is a slightly different airplane than the 140, by the way.

MTV

MBDiagMan wrote:I saw a negative comment on here about the 140A being a beer can

Some have a life outlook that includes a general negativity towards aluminum. They may have been bullied or beaten up by aluminum, or mocked and ridiculed by aluminum at some point in their formative years. Perhaps a greasy beer can slipped from their grasp during a frat party, only to land in an older bro's lap, and thus more hazing ensued. But most likely it was a contempt for aluminum grown out of boredom with a strong and dependable construction technique, and a lack of overhead skylights. Darkness. Darkness in the cabin can drive this hatred. This aluminumism is totally irrational and should be disregarded as general internet noise.

My gramps had a 140A. They are neat. If I was shopping for a 140, I would pass on the ones with fabric wings and hold out for an A model.

That is the definition of cool.
This Grandpa's airplane is going to make his grandkids album too. And if I don't choose to crush the can in some way, it will be as solid then as it is now.

You might consider a stinson 108 they seemed to be priced reasonably and have good performance with good load carying capacity.

mtv wrote:The C-140 A model is a delightful little airplane. It is, for all intents and purposes, identical to an early Cessna 150, except with a tailwheel. ......The 140 A is a slightly different airplane than the 140, by the way.

The C140 & C140A both have hinged flaps as opposed to the much larger semi-fowler flaps of the C150. The C140A flaps may be a bit bigger than those of the ragwing model, but still, the much larger "barndoor" flaps of the C150 are more effective at providing drag & lift.
The C140A has a tapered metal-skinned wing with a single strut, like the C150, while the C140 has V struts with fabric-covered wings (some have been metalized). From what I've been told, the fabric winged models are a bit lighter. I believe that the 140A does have the same larger more effective ailerons as the later C150, so it may fly better in spite of carrying a bit more weight.
A C150 taildragger makes a nice airplane also, if a bit marginal on power with the stock O-200. This can be countered to a certain extent by keeping the weight down.

They may have been bullied or beaten up by aluminum, or mocked and ridiculed by aluminum at some point in their formative years. Perhaps a greasy beer can slipped from their grasp during a frat party, only to land in an older bro's lap, and thus more hazing ensued. But most likely it was a contempt for aluminum grown out of boredom with a strong and dependable construction technique, and a lack of overhead skylights. Darkness. Darkness in the cabin can drive this hatred. This aluminumism is totally irrational and should be disregarded as general internet noise.

Zane, have you been drinking??

Update!

First of all I appreciate all the responses in this thread. I have an update on two fronts:

The strip. The pipeline is dragging their feet, but that's okay. In the course of the project they will move a fence that will give me a measured 1525 feet with barbwire fences on both ends. On one end the barb wire fence will be 175 feet from power lines. The end of the strip closest to the power lines is slightly down hill, and even further and more steeply down hill to the power lines, so I don't think that they will be a serious factor since they start at a lower ground level. It will be next spring at the earliest before this strip can be in. In the mean time I am hangering the plane at an airport where I will get my instruction.

The plane. I bought a '48 Cessba 140 rag wing with an O200A 100HP Continental. It has a VERY updated panel which adds some weight, but it does have a climb prop and if necessary will get the VG's. It's a beautiful plane with lots of extras and is a looker. It has a high time engine, but runs great, great compression, no metal in oil, good temps and is still short of TBO. I am hoping to get a few hundred hours before overhaul.

The plans. I am planning on finishing my license, getting my IR and hopefully finish before next year when I put in my strip, build a hanger and bring her home.

I will update again when I start tryinig to match the plane with the strip.

Thanks again for all the posts.

Doc