Very sad. Don't fly in bad wx.

RB

Prayers to all.

Just know the capabilites and the limitations of yourself, and the aircraft.

None of these accidents is due to a "new" cause... pilots do the same thing, over and over and over...

It is a tragedy when other people are along... people who RELY on the pilot.

It was hard reading through all this...My prayers go out to the family and friends...I see this all too often around here in the rockies, very sad and very sobering. The mtns are not ones to push it with and not to respect. It's amazing how many people try to launch in snow storms without adequate icing protection (amongst other bad wx conditions)....even "big boys" get bit out here with multiple business jet crashes due to icing, etc.

Such a sad, and unwarranted loss of life

More details......

http://www.twincities.com/ci_16522493?nclick_check=1

It could have ended up in a worse spot..... But not much.

Sad.

Ben.

All fatalities are very sad events ... but because this one involved 3 children I find it especially heart-wrenching. My deepest sympathies to the wife and mother of those who were lost.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=2 ... 079&akey=1

Ayup

I see nothing in the above attachment to show that this is the same incident. It is very similar in nature. I dont like to see death dealing with aviation. Flying is still alot more safe than driving to the safeway around the corner.

87Kitfox1 wrote: It is very similar in nature. I dont like to see death dealing with aviation.

That was my point I suppose. Both Mooneys flying at nearly the same altitude in snowy "shoulder season" weather with brisk winds aloft out of the west, crashing at almost the same elevation only a couple of miles from each other. And of course taking a few passengers with them. At least the K model was Turbocharged. Not that it helped.

Flying is still alot more safe than driving to the safeway around the corner.

Maybe in some urban shithole. Not much of anywhere else.

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20040528X00684&ntsbno=DEN04FA079&akey=1

Ayup

Winds aloft in the NTSB report you posted were only 26 knots. That's not really an exceptionally windy day for the area. Not much more than average, really. Although I would suppose that wind velocity may have been substantially higher right at the spine of the Winds.

Do you suppose most of these guys plow it in on a stall, trying to maintain elevation? Or is there really even any purpose in discussing control inputs at that point?

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20040528X00684&ntsbno=DEN04FA079&akey=1

Ayup

These 2 quotes are from the above NTSB report:

The last two radar returns suggest that the airplane was in a descent of approximately 4,200 feet per minute.

The NTSB Investigator-In-Charge reviewed the pilot's flight logbook and found no endorsements to indicate whether the pilot had ever received any mountain flying training.

I didn't know you needed such an endorsement to fly over the mountains????

An endorsement for mountain flying isn't required, but a logbook entry indicating that the pilot had actually received some instruction in mountain flying could suggest that he'd at least made an effort to learn something about mountain environments. Lots of flatlanders have met their end in the Rocky Mountains.

Some instruction in mountain flying is generally a good thing, at least if you didn't grow up flying in the mountains. Nevertheless, this one sounds much more like an icing encounter. That never stopped the NTSB from pointing out information that had nothing to do with the accident.

MTV

mepps1 wrote:

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20040528X00684&ntsbno=DEN04FA079&akey=1

Ayup

Winds aloft in the NTSB report you posted were only 26 knots. That's not really an exceptionally windy day for the area. Not much more than average, really. Although I would suppose that wind velocity may have been substantially higher right at the spine of the Winds.

Do you suppose most of these guys plow it in on a stall, trying to maintain elevation? Or is there really even any purpose in discussing control inputs at that point?

This is probably the main thing that flatlander pilots use to assure themselves that weather is within their limits ,,, and one that is deadly..

The winds aloft are reported away from mountian ranges, at least in this case it is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
METEOROLOGICAL INFORMATION

At 1153, the weather conditions at Big Piney, Wyoming (BPI; elevation 6,990 feet), 200 degrees for 43 nautical miles (nm) from the accident site, was as follows: wind 210 degrees at 14 knots gusting to 20 knots; visibility 10 statue miles (sm); cloud condition scattered at 3,900 feet, broken at 5,500 feet, and broken at 6,500 feet; temperature 46 degrees Fahrenheit; dew point 37 degrees Fahrenheit; altimeter setting 29.83 inches. At 1156, the weather conditions at Riverton, Wyoming (RIW; elevation 5,525 feet), 085 degrees for 50 nm from the accident site, were as follows: wind 200 degrees at 16 knots gusting 24 knots; visibility 10 sm; cloud condition scattered at 8,500 feet; temperature 59 degrees Fahrenheit; dew point 32 degrees Fahrenheit; altimeter setting 29.73 inches.

The sounding data at Riverton, Wyoming, at 0600 on the day of the accident, indicated that the wind at 12,000 feet was 270 degrees at 26 knots, at 13,500 feet it was 273 degrees at 26 knots, and at 16,000 feet it was 260 degrees at 26 knots. Satellite imagery showed that the Wind River Range was covered by clouds; the bottoms could not be determined. NEXRAD Doppler weather radar (WSR-88-D) data indicates light to moderate precipitation (snow) in the northwest half of the Wind River Range, and intermittent precipitation (snow) in the southeast half of the Wind River Range.

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Using ground station reporting equiptment to derive ridgetop winds is a poor idea. The valley area between the Wind River range and the Wyoming range is pretty expansive and allows the prevailing winds to flow relatively smoothly. When that same airmass is pushed up against a mountian range it accerates two to three times the velocity as it blows over ridgetops. 5000 higher then the ridge you might see 1.5 times the valley surface velocity. You cross that ridge 500 feet over it and you better have the belts on tight, be right at VA and pray to god the rotor winds don't spoil your day. More often then not you be thrown out of control at anything over lets say 50 mph if you are skimming the ridgetop. If you could climb after the ridge you will minimize the turbulance but it takes ton of HP. Once you loose altitude and get into the lee side of the peak you are right in the belly of the washing machine and most times only luck will get you home safely.

Ben ( I fly in the mountains every day ) Haas.

ATC tapes are released and it paints a troubling picture of the last few minutes of the families life...

Please....... Don't fly in the mountains when the weather is poor and the winds are strong..

http://www.twincities.com/minneapolis/c ... ck_check=1

Audio is in the boxes that say part 1.2.3.4.

Tailwinds fellow aviator.

Ben.

Damn, Wouldn't find any endorsement or training in mine for mountain flying either??
GT