Something to think about:

With all of the discussion that comes from the various flying exploits, I think what's most important is how the backcountry flying community represents itself moving forward. Most everyone that flies their airplane to its full potential is very good at what they do. They are representatives to the backcountry flying / general aviation world. Most pilots (whether they say it or not) look up to what it is they are doing with their aircraft. What some call crazy, stupid or irresponsible is nothing more than that of an airshow pilot or extreme sports junkie calculating risk in their own discipline. Scroll the forums, social media pages, etc. The backcountry pilots dominate those forums with videos and exploits that make most wonder why. They are not "look at me videos" but this is what we did today stories. They watch, analyze and critique themselves. Then share it on the world wide net. That's when the keyboard pilot gets involved. Those pilots really flying are really the 1%. It is those same pilots that most want to see and watch if for nothing more than the "NASCAR or MMA" effect. Nobody wants to watch you fly in the pattern. You don't read Playboy for the ads. It is critically important to remember, and I stress, the professional training, safety side and consequences of what it is these pilots are doing with airplanes. Honestly, when I look at the antics from above they make it look very easy. IT IS NOT!! I don't feel they are responsible for some knuckle head that chooses to try what it is they are doing however, I do feel responsible to make darn sure people understand the process and how to do it safely and the various outcomes that can happen. No joke. It's very real. I hope folks read this and understand the seriousness of what goes on in the minds of a backcountry pilot. Its no bullshit and serious consequences can happen very quickly. Fly your plane to your own ability, train often and remember to never second guess your inner voice when taking chances. It's generally correct. My entire professional life has been spent around risk management. Take it seriously. It's your life at stake or someone else's.

AKT





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Well said... the discussion on a certain FB group about a skilled individual waterskiing in a Zenith is a prime example of this.


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Looking good Kevin. Let me know if I can help in any way.

We're talking about texting and flying, right? ...Or selfies?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Good reminder, thanks for all you've done for the back country community.

Well communicated. The other side of that is don't get wadded panties when someone offers an opinion contradictory to rock star worship when a vid gets posted up.

gbflyer wrote:Well communicated. The other side of that is don't get wadded panties when someone offers an opinion contradictory to rock star worship when a vid gets posted up.

x2

hotrod180 wrote:

gbflyer wrote:Well communicated. The other side of that is don't get wadded panties when someone offers an opinion contradictory to rock star worship when a vid gets posted up.

x2

X3

I never understood folks doing something for attention and then getting butt-hurt when some of the attention is negative.

What some see as an amazing display of skill, others see as an amazing display of jackassery. Both views are equally valid, as they are not mutually exclusive.

Personally, I don’t see the stunt flying some people post here as actually being related to backcountry flying at all. I could care less if someone (for example) wants to hydroplane their tires, but unless the aircraft takes off in less distance than it lands, it’s not a backcountry flying technique…it’s a stunt.

And that’s fine…everyone is entitled to fly how and why they choose. But the idea that we all need to support and admire the people who are pushing the envelope by flying attention-grabbing stunts rubs me very wrong.

A perfect approach and landing into a confined area with less than ideal air stability impresses the hell out of me, and water skiing a land plane simply doesn’t. I guess I just never got the whole “look at me!” mentality, and don’t see what it possibly has to do with backcountry flying.

If folks want to fly stunts in the bush and post them up that's fine, but to me that's stunt flying, not backcountry flying, and it's not realistic to get offended if some of the community gives a thumbs-down response.

Just a viewpoint.

The growing interest in all of this type of flying seems to have created a new and wider variety of interests out of something that used to be seen as just one thing.

I would hazard a guess that a large number of the people who look at BCP or even participate in these discussions are not daily working bush pilots. It also seems logical that not all of the viewers or participants here are full-on back country adventurers. I have to believe that some of the people here, like myself, are more interested in the design and and technology of STOL aircraft and recreational STOL flying, regardless of whether that is done in the local area surrounding Los Angeles or the middle of AK.

My point is that the "Extreme STOL" sport flying, like Steve's dead stick takeoffs, or MotoDave's fantastic short strip videos, or Coyote Ugly's 10K T-craft mountain landings, is no less valid or interesting than the guys who fly 207's all day for a living hauling freight or passengers. I can appreciate that wide variety of interests, and I'd be surprised if others can't find some interest or value there too.

The big question is whether the BCP forum owner (or membership) wants BCP to include and represent all of these various STOL-related interests in one place, or split itself into two or three different forums or sub-forums for Sport STOL flying, Back Country Air Camping, Professional Bush Flying, and STOL Aircraft Design/Technology. That decision will be a difficult one, complicated by sponsor and advertiser interests, personal time and effort, risk of offending or losing X number of participants, etc.

And +10 on the rock star worship thing... that jumped the shark a long time ago.

Great viewpoints and thank you but did you really read my post?

Stunt flying...

Isn't that he guy upside at the Airshows or is it the Blue Angles all grouped up together flying down the runway upside down?

Landing on a mountain top, adding power 50' back from a large cliff and bailing off the edge or utilizing water to land IMO are very much part of backcountry flying. Bush pilots are different. Huge respect to those guys. There the ones making their living hauling heavy loads in and out daily.

Backcountry flying is a sport. It's much different. Your the guy or gal that goes camping on the weekend at one end or the fella that's out strip bagging or pushing the airplane to its capabilities way up at the other end. IMO and it's strictly my opinion, backcountry flying is very much like skiing. (It's what I can relate it to). You have folks riding the nice green cruisers or even down on the roe tow and then you have folks ridding the black runs and beyond that you have the folks dropping every cliff they can find and may even through a big trick in the middle. Most people watch and think "there crazy" "what an idiot" when in fact most are extremely talented.

Criticism is one thing and everyone should be able to take it. Harsh opinionated responses are another and they generally come from the less experienced Johnny do gooder.

Anyhow, I posted the above as to purely share a though that seems to contnue to come up.

Don't be a keyboard pilot and if your out there pushing it, you better know the consequences.

AKT

Good products, techniques, and knowledge from one segment of aviation is often applicable to another segment. This is even true across industries. The dynamic proactive control movement in hydraulic blade operation is exactly the same as the fore/aft stick movement to stay in low ground effect. Many, many other associations exit in aviation. The machines we operate are pretty simple. The operators can be a little snooty at times. But we love them. Right? Who hasn't crossed their legs while leaning on a prop while posing for a camera?

I like your thoughts AKT but will kinda of disagree with your assertion that backcountry flying is just a sport. In your analogy of skiing there are the folks ski patrol etc that do it for a living that also are pretty good skiers. I don't do it for fun, I do it for money....but man do I have fun. I still consider what I do backcountry flying but not a sport. I love watching the videos and the discussions on the board as I still try to learn what the hell I am doing.

Fly safe, have fun.

Good post Kevin.

Most of us here fly for fun, not out of necessity. Is it necessary to land on a 10,000ft mountain? Is it necessary to water ski to a gravel bar? Is it necessary to land off airport? Is it necessary to even fly at all? No. Everyone has there own threshold for what they're comfortable with doing in an airplane. Based on their own personal experience and capabilities some like to push the limit a little more than others. Sometimes they might push a little too hard and bend some metal. That's the risk they take though and that's on them. No need to give them a hard time about it. They know it's not the safest thing to do. It would be safer to not fly at all. What would be the fun in that? It's ok if you disagree with someone, just do it respectfully.
But, for example, when it's called an "amazing display of jackassery" that's not helping anything. That'll push people away from posting anything on this site. I've met many pilots that don't post anything here due to the BS drama that happens from time to time. I'd like to see more people contributing to the community, not less. When we're disrespectful to each other a lot of people will just leave.

Headoutdaplane wrote:I like your thoughts AKT but will kinda of disagree with your assertion that backcountry flying is just a sport. In your analogy of skiing there are the folks ski patrol etc that do it for a living that also are pretty good skiers. I don't do it for fun, I do it for money....but man do I have fun. I still consider what I do backcountry flying but not a sport. I love watching the videos and the discussions on the board as I still try to learn what the hell I am doing.

Fly safe, have fun.

Yes your a backcountry pilot but really your a bush pilot. Your making money with a responsabilty to your pax.

A patroller or ski guide is a skier making money with big responsibilities. When we guide skiers in Alaska there's the "guide line". Not the line I would choose to ski when I'm out on my own for fun.

Both doing what they love but there's a difference. Responsibilities change big time when your hired for passenger carry no?

As a (new) CFI, if I'm teaching backcountry flying, I'm a bush pilot teaching in the backcountry. That pilot when we leave and go our separate ways will be a backcountry pilot hopefully safer and smarter. He may even go on to becoming a Bush pilot.

I'm not teaching them to water ski. The discussion may come up but we're not out giving demos or challenging them to do such. What they choose to do on their own after we go our separate ways must stay within their own capabilities. I stress that. I don't know anyone that would condone or teach someone to do that.

Now then, if we fly together for fun often and the person won't let the topic rest I may offer pointers based on experience. That person is obviously going to go out and try it at some point. I would much rather have them understand the concept, the severity and consequences than go into it blind. But again I do not teach that sort of activity ever and persuade their thinking to the safe side always.

When I'm not teaching I'm flying within my capabilities and comfort zone what ever that may be for day.

AKT

I must admit, I am truly lost amidst all the semantics, courtesy police, and hierarchy / pecking order antics of this thread.... but confusion comes easy to me

I like Kevin's post, but I admittedly don't now if he's asking us to be good stewards to the backcountry image, pleading with the general public to try and understand we are safe and well trained, or trying to get everyone on the forum to read and enjoy these pages in unison?

So I will offer these points;

It is worth a note of caution on judgement... Many of the keyboard flyers on this forum that I have met have 5 digit logbooks to back their opinions... That's years of airtime not hours, not days, weeks or months.... years in the air

Good stewardship is incumbent on us all, if you read these pages you are a backcountry pilot or enthusiast. Forget trying to micro manage the definition of that, people were enjoying landing in pastures, sand bars, and glaciers long before any of us was a glint in our mama's eyes... There is nothing new here but the faces.

The public will always fear what it is ignorant of. But very little of today's public is ignorant of the ways of the web.

How an airplane can ski, can and does scare the bejeezus out of them, that does not mean I personally do not enjoy this, it just means I must be mindful of how, when, and where I elect to practice such Jackassery...
But seeing drama on an internet forum does not. No one is going to see one persons differing viewpoint on a topic (no matter how he couches it) as reason to avoid that activity, or forum. Yes, some people will have intrepidation about joining in. I choose not to participate in FB. But that is about their choice, as mine about FB, not about the forum.

Lastly I must disagree with one poster here....

Rob, sorry bud you're full of it...

robw56 wrote:Most of us here fly for fun, not out of necessity.

I Need to fly..... I need to fly for work, I need to fly for sanity, and most of all I need to fly for the fun of it... For me flying is absolutely a necessity... And I am a-ok with you calling me a jackass for saying that, my wife does regularly...

Take care, Rob

Rob, I think you're mis understanding what I said, or taking it the wrong way. But that's ok. I think we're on the same page anyways. Flying is more than just a hobby to me, it's a way of life. I fly as much as I can, but it's never enough. I've probably spent half my money on aviataion... I wasted the rest.

Hammer wrote:......I never understood folks doing something for attention and then getting butt-hurt when some of the attention is negative. What some see as an amazing display of skill, others see as an amazing display of jackassery. Both views are equally valid, as they are not mutually exclusive......

I will go a little further with this line of thought....
I think extreme aviating is like extreme anything else --
skiing, skateboarding, motorcycling, etc etc.
If it goes right, everyone yells "that was awesome!"
But if it goes wrong, that yell changes to "what a dumb fuck!"
Like it or not, that's just human nature.

Hi Rob,

My apologies, that was my feeble attempts at interjecting humor in a thread I could see was about to get the wheels knocked out from under it.
Yes, you are correct, we are on the same page, and suffer from the same infliction, good bad or indifferent.

And ya, that water picture would be framed and in my barn!

Take care, Rob

.

Hotrod,

Sorry man, but I think you've missed the point Kevin et al, are trying to make (Kevin please correct me if I'm wrong). I *think* (because I am so easily confused) what that point is, is that while what you are saying is entirely plausible, it doesn't need to be that way!

I will offer some recent examples that come to mind ;

As you saw on the cub site, just a few days ago a very near friend of mine had an engine failure while towing a banner over Nashville. Having towed in formation with Wayne over LA, San Diego, San Fransisco, and Sacramento , I can honestly say those times had me far more on pins and needles than the countless hours I've spent flying over treacherous terrain. Why? because can you imagine the hey day the media could have with you if things weren't presented just right ? But if you saw the video, you saw that after successfully and safely ditching the banner and parking his Husky safely in downtown Nashville, Wayne then played his minutes of do or die with the media spectacularly. He (and consequently we) came out smelling like a rose. That is how you stack one up in the city without giving all of us a black eye.

As to skill and training I will use Rob's water video.

Here is a video that the OP put together to say "hey I almost biffed it, I own it, and I recognized it, and acted according" First let me say that in itself takes more balls than the whole waterskiing bit... Whille I do agree with someone else in that a few feet sooner would have played out differently, that simply does not take away from the fact that through practice, experience and skill Rob recognized things weren't going quite as he had planned, and most importantly, you can see (and hear) that he is doing all the right things to get it squared away. That video shows skill under a challenging moment. Someone skiing across a lake without incident really doesn't show squat... They may be skilled, or maybe they were just lucky that day... Throw them a shit hand like Rob was dealt, and then you'll have a better measure. Oh and sorry Rob.... That isn't meant to be Rockstar worship I'm just calling it like I see it.

Anyways... I had a couple others, but this is already plenty wordy....

Take care, Rob

IMHO
I love the colorful adjectives. Jackassery, butt-hurt, rock star worship.

To be at the highest level of any motorsport, skiing, base jumping, etc. You are going to destroy equipment and hurt or kill yourself. It is a matter of time. When, not if. Those who have, and those who are going to. There was a time in my life I didn't care about crashing equipment. A lot of Adrenalin junkies crash and burn, it is the nature of the beast.

Dance with the devil you will get burned. I don't give a flying F&%K how bad ass a flyer you are. At the same time, I do admire guys willing to destroy $50K, $100K, $300K airplanes for their personal since of accomplishment.

I will close by saying. Y'all got giant balls. Just don't get butt-hurt when your picture, of your jackassery, shows up on the web and someone doesn't rock star worship you.

BTW jackassery cost me a wing tip, landing light, a handful of VGs. Hold my beer and watch this Jackassery pure and simple. And I'm not butt-hurt either.