Polypropylene under ware-BEWARE!
I have mentioned this in other topics- That synthetic materials MELT when they burn, and cause WAY worse burns than if natural fibers had been used!
A close friend of mine just learned this the (very) hard way.
He operates an auto/misc upholstery shop in a small town on the wet side of Washington.
His shop is (was?) small, but too big and poorly insulated to try to heat the whole building, so he used radiant space heaters. He used both small electric and larger propane depending on the application. Evidently the short propane hose from the tank to the radiant heater leaked and formed a low layer of propane in the shop and then ignited. He was Inside working when it happened.
UNFORTUNATELY he was wearing polypro long john bottoms under his denim jeans. When the gas ignited/exploded/'woofed' it also ignited the long johns he was wearing and they started burning and melting UNDER his jeans-which were singed, but maintained their integrity.
If he would have had cotton long johns he would have just suffered the burns to his hands, face, eyes, and ears-which is plenty bad enough. BUT, because of the polypro he ALSO has 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his legs. He will be having skin grafting surgery on Mon or Tues and maybe supplemental surgeries later depending on healing. He will be in the hospital at least 2 weeks, likely more.
In Iraq, we (good guys) learned some hard/fatal lessons about synthetic fibers and the damage they can cause when they meet flame or soon to be ignited flammable vapors. Moderate survivable AIRCRAFT impacts that released and vaporized fuel-when ignited would turn the pilots/passengers into crispy critters if they were decked out in polypro/synthetics. The plastic cloth melts and STICKS to you-and cannot be taken off or rubbed off without taking the SKIN with it!
DO NOT wear it under Nomex and think you are protected! In certain situations it can burn and melt UNDER the Nomex-just like under his jeans. Think of all the Polly coats, tents, shirts, fleece, socks etc as the OPPOSITE OF NOMEX. It loves to burn and melt and drip.
Cotton, wool, bamboo, WHATEVER! Natural fibers will burn, but it ignites at a higher temp and does NOT melt to you.
Pilots and friends: Please read, and re-read, and internalize-and ACT on-this information. For you, and you family/passengers.

There are a lot of "me"s out there-as in-It wasn't going to happen to "me"!

lc

Cotton or wool

Is that like softWARE?

Merino wool for the win...not cheap though. Icebreaker, Patagonia, Sierra Trading Post has some cheaper brands of underwear bottoms. Wool works much better than cotton, but the blends do have a little poly in them for stretch, I believe.

I haven't seen him yet. My wife went over (the pass to the wet side) on Wed morning to help out. I am home for now.
They immediately helicoptered him from the ER to Harbor View Medical center burn unit-which is one of the very best in the world. Right now he is zonked on pain meds. This guy is mid 60s and like the energy bunny. They will have to keep him sedated to keep him in just a room.
Anyway.....
This doesn't just mess up the patient. It fouls up the lives of all the family members who have to drop everything (important jobs) to come pick up the slack plus solve the abundance of NEW problems.

This makes playin' and workin' smart (safety conscious) look even better!

What is the opposite of Nomex? Polypro !
lc

Thanks, LC. I've been fooling myself by thinking I could get away with synthetics under Nomex. This will change how I dress when I fly.

Thoughts for your friend, and appreciation for kick in the pants I needed on this topic.

Sorry about your friend, LC. Best wishes for a full recovery.

Ibex and Smartwool are a couple more good wool brands, the former being pretty top-shelf.

One other synthetic hazard is toxic smoke inhalation. I know first-hand of a responder involved in a patient with burning nylon Carhartt bibs (the black Arctic type). The medical responder who was working the patient inhaled smoke from the smoldering bibs, resulting in significant, long-term lung damage.

Everybody got a Halon extinguisher within arm's reach?

-DP

Zane- more like Malware

And where was my brain? SILK is a good natural fiber-besides cotton and wool. And silk is very comfortable. If you can't stand even merino wool against your skin, put a layer of silk under it.

If you use a natural fiber under the polypro wick layer you might get the best of both? The MAIN thing is you don't want that stuff MELTING to you. If it melts to a tight weave natural fiber you might be OK? Just saying if you gotta have the wicking-you may want to improvise-or at least minimize the risk.....

lc

I think these guys know more about aviation related thermal injury than just about anyone. Burns and spinal injury, the stuff of nightmares.

http://usasam.amedd.army.mil/dl/Flight% ... rt%20C.pdf

Gump

^^^^^ Good stuff, Gump!

Here's a bit more in depth.

http://usasam.amedd.army.mil/dl/APT/4_I ... ipment.pdf

Gump

Ok, Gump. I get it.
So it should Not have been the flight crews that had the polypro issues. I know it was associated with both aircraft crashes and ground IEDs. Evidently the 'grunts' didn't get the 'good stuff' from the quartermasters, and when being ferried to the action and a crash happened.........

Sorry, should have had better information to pass on.
lc

Littlecub wrote:Ok, Gump. I get it.
So it should Not have been the flight crews that had the polypro issues. I know it was associated with both aircraft crashes and ground IEDs. Evidently the 'grunts' didn't get the 'good stuff' from the quartermasters, and when being ferried to the action and a crash happened.........

Sorry, should have had better information to pass on.
lc

No, no, no, no.... I'm not saying bad about anything that's been posted. Just the opposite. This has been a pet-peeve of mine for decades. And I'm glad to see it come to light now and then. I've had several best friends turned into crispy critters in rotor and fixed wing accidents. All survivable if protective clothing had been worn.

Gump

Back in 1981 I was part of the original crew when Care Flight started helicopter medivac service in Reno. One of the dipshit's in the administration designed, and bought, these nylon flightsuits for us to wear. I was damn near initially fired, because I told them to stuff the nylon crap up their asses, and refused to wear the thing. Instead I showed up every day in an old GI issue NOMEX suit of my own. And with my own helmet.

They soon changed their tune when I scrounged up some Army video of helicopter crashes and burn injuries, and made the dummies watch it. They still wear NOMEX today.

Gump

^^^^ Good for you, Gump!

I'm not fond of 'bad' information, from me, or anyone else. Even with the net (especially with the net?) bad info happens. Unfortunately, a lot of us stumble on it occasionally...... But I think in retrospect, that was a 'header' .....

You posted some great resources for pilots to use to take information to our bosses (domestic or otherwise) to justify spending a little more and going to a little more trouble to 'push more odds in our favor'....
That is a very good thing!
lc

LC, best wishes to your friend. A few years ago, a friend's dad stepped in front of a space heater, and the polyester in his coveralls melted and burned on his legs. He was in the hospital for weeks, and eventually died from complications resulting from the severe burns. It eventually convinced me to buy a pair of Nomex insulated coveralls.

For those looking for some Nomex, also search for "aramid" which is the generic name for Nomex.

Sportsman's Guide has a few cheap surplus Nomex coveralls right now, but they're pretty limited on the available sizes:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/new-canadian-military-nomex-coveralls-olive-drab.aspx?a=604903 (small only)
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/used-british-military-nomex-coveralls-khaki.aspx?a=884913 (XL only)
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/new-us-military-cvc-coveralls-tan.aspx?a=561525 (XL SHORT only)

Also, a relatively expensive commercial offering, but a range of sizes available:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/big-bill-6-oz-flame-resistant-nomex-iiia-coveralls.aspx?a=534579

When I first became a professional firefighter (back in the stone age) we were all wearing polyester uniform pants and shirts because they were cheap for the Department to buy and because they didn't require ironing to look presentable. Then there started to be reports of firefighters having the uniforms (which were often not removed before firefighting clothing was donned) melting into the skin of firefighters who were exposed to high heat from firefighting, even when the firefighting gear didn't fail and flame didn't directly contact the firefighter. Even though cotton clothing was flammable, it was superior to common synthetic clothing. Our department decided to pony up and bought expensive uniforms made of fire/melt resistant material, but even wearing long sleeve, heavy cotton shirts and pants will give good protection until they actually catch fire (getting the material wet helps delay the ignition point). It is something to think about if you fly a lot.

I almost bought a Sportsman's Guide special, but I'm a little on the tall skinny side, so I don't really fit in the normal "extra large" measurements. I read that, especially for flight suits, they need to fit right to be comfortable.

I searched Ebay for "Nomex flight suit 46L" and found exactly my size for $60 on the first search. The ad said the military acquisition price for this same suit is something like $350.

Don't rule out Ebay if you're looking for a specific size for best fit.

This stuff is the bomb...

http://www.massif.com/flame-resistant/underwear.html

You'll pay for it, but it is primo. They also make a "fleece" jacket which is very warm.

260Driver wrote:This stuff is the bomb...

http://www.massif.com/flame-resistant/underwear.html

You'll pay for it, but it is primo. They also make a "fleece" jacket which is very warm.

Great link.

(beside the point, but if I told my wife I needed flame-resistant underwear, she would laugh out loud...)

Excellent thread. I have been using the underwear I was issued in the Navy and by NOAA. It is Gi issue for flight crews for cold weather and for wear under exposure suits. It has a waffle pattern and sewed with the seams on the outside, along with leg straps to keep them from riding up your legs. They last vitally forever. If you want to look about for them surplus:
CWU-43/P DRAWERS, FLYER's
ANTI-EXPOSURE ARAMID
NSN 8415-00-467-4073