What are the normal rules of engagement or having a pre-buy done? As a seller should I be expected to fly the plane on a 400+ mile round trip cross country to allow the buyer's mechanic inspect it or do buyers normaly come to you. The above trip would end up costing us around $175 in fuel alone. That's a lot of money just to let someone kick the tires. Would it be fair to have the prospective buyer foot the bill for fuel if I do fly it to them? I'm looking for inputs from people who have actually dealt with this before.

Buyer is responsible for all prebuy expenses. It should be pretty strait forward if you write the offer properly. Pm me if you need any help.

I think it's fair to state where the plane is available to be seen/inspected. Any serious buyer won't balk at making the effort to come to you (or to cover the gas to get the plane to the inspector of their choice) because they know what a small cost it represents when weighed against not doing their due diligence.

Normally:

Pre-buy is done where the plane is based.

Buyer pays for pre-purchase inspection at aircraft location using mechanic of his choice.

Seller pays for necessary repairs.

All of this is negotiable of course. IMO, it would not seem unreasonable to require prospective buyer to pay for fuel if you are flying the plane to his location for tire kicking.
That said, these are not normal times, sales are down and it's a buyers market, so some sellers will probably be willing to go to greater lengths to make the sale.

To try and avoid flying the plane all over, I'd put together a comprehensive package of photos to send to the prospective purchaser first. Then if there's still interest, hammer out the details on costs.

When I sold my 140 I flew it 600 miles to East Texas for an prebuy, but I made the gentleman pay for all expenses AND required a 10% deposit up front (non refundable unless there was a surprise or I wasn't honest). He thought that was fair and it let me know he wasn't just a tire kicker.

Bill:

As someone who is currently in the market as a potential 180 buyer, I would NEVER ask a seller to transport their plane anywhere without a purchase contract and deposit in hand. I'd expect that the purchase deal would be structured that I was purchasing the aircraft in an airworthy condition and it was the seller's responsibility to fix unairworthy items out of the proceeds, and if the deal went south because of a disagreement on what needed to be fixed, I'd get my deposit back. If the airplane is completely airworthy, but the buyer gets cold feet, the seller keeps the deposit. As a buyer I'd expect that - After all, that's how you buy and sell real estate, right? You mentioned the term tire kicker......Why would you want to take your plane off the market for a tire kicker? Money talks. The market seems really tough right now, but I think patience and holding out for an appropriate deal is the way to go.

My 2 cents, FWIW.

Flynengr

Buyer should be able to come see it on their own nickel if they're serious.

Pre-buy may be standard, but I'd hesitate to offer "paying for all repairs". There is something wrong with all of them, and 2 different inspectors will find 2 different sets of problems, guaranteed.

gb

gbflyer wrote:Buyer should be able to come see it on their own nickel if they're serious. Pre-buy may be standard, but I'd hesitate to offer "paying for all repairs". There is something wrong with all of them, and 2 different inspectors will find 2 different sets of problems, guaranteed.

I agree on both issues. I'd say the airplane is for sale "where is, as is"-- if something shows up that would make the airplane unairworthy & kill the deal, then re-negotiate the price. After all, one mechanic's idea of unairworthy may be another's idea of "we'll fix this next time".

gbflyer wrote:

Buyer should be able to come see it on their own nickel if they're serious.

Pre-buy may be standard, but I'd hesitate to offer "paying for all repairs". There is something wrong with all of them, and 2 different inspectors will find 2 different sets of problems, guaranteed.

gb

Big difference in paying for all repairs and fixing unairworthy conditions. How does one get the thing home if it is unairworthy? I agree that two inspectors can come to different conclusions WRT airworthiness, but if my mechanic is telling me an item is unairworthy and the seller is balking at it, I'll expect my deposit back if we can't agree on a fix or compromise. Every buyer should. It ain't that difficult.

Flynengr

I think if the guy is too cheap to come see the plane himself or send a representative then he has no business buying the plane in the first place. He is wanting to make a major purchase and that is no time to be cheap. I have traveled all over the country looking at planes and I have never asked a seller to bring it to me. If I did though I would expect to pay for ALL his expenses. There are a LOT of tire kickers out there that seem to have nothing better to do than waste peoples time and money.
Just my $.02

I wouldn't worry about the guy not being able to come see it himself.
He may still be serious but, just may not have the time. ( business obligations and such).

I would expect him to give a non refundable deposit (in advance) for your time and expenses to bring it to him.

If he won't do that, just forget about it.

bushwagon wrote:What is the normal etticacy for having a pre-buy done? As a seller should I be expected to fly the plane on a 400+ mile round trip cross country to allow the buyer's mechanic inspect it or do buyers normaly come to you. The above trip would end up costing us around $175 in fuel alone. That's a lot of money just to let someone kick the tires. Would it be fair to have the prospective buyer foot the bill for fuel if I do fly it to them? I'm looking for inputs from people who have actually dealt with this before.

Have buyers Mech. come to you --If it's a deal that will work.

My plane is for sale here. If you think your interested come here. If you want your mechanic to inspect it bring him with you. If he takes it apart he's gotta put it back together here, if he doesn't it's here and you don't have to put it back together there. The only exception is if they were to pay expenses up front.

Bout 3 years ago I had a guy call me from Benson Az he wanted to buy my 170 sight unseen. He was adamant that this was the plane for him and sent me a $2500 deposit. He asked me if I'd fly it to him, I said sure it'll cost you $2,500. If you buy the plane that $2,500 will be applied to the purchase if you don't I'll be flying home and keeping the $2,500. He agreed to that and I called the 3 different potental buyers that were coming to look at the plane the coming weekend and told them it was sold.

This buyer called about a week later and told me to keep the money he couldn't buy the plane.

Thanks for the inputs. I talked with the prospective buyer and he has offered to pay expenses including a hotel if I need to stay over night during the pre-buy. Also offered to arrange for transportation home if he decides to buy it. I'm planning on taking it there next weekend. Wish me luck, it could be Super Cub time for me

You fly your airplane to a different mechanics shop, he opens it up to do the prebuy, looks in a panel, shakes his head and calls over a couple of other mechanics that seem to be doing busy work, they all shake their heads. Too many posible angles to the back story before you got there. But your there and your airplanes broke. The main points of a 180 and engine will only take under 4 hours to look at. After that a serious deposit will stop the mind changing over little crap and you will know that you are dealing with a real buyer. Its still a buyers market out there. Right now I have an aircraft for sale. The buyer had a mechanic come to my place and look over the plane, price was negotiated, Contract was written up and signed, deposit check has been received. Waiting for final bank funds and the aircraft will be delivered by me. At delivery title and final payment will be transfered. Good luck to you and wish me luck.

bushwagon wrote:What is the normal etticacy for having a pre-buy done? As a seller should I be expected to fly the plane on a 400+ mile round trip cross country to allow the buyer's mechanic inspect it or do buyers normaly come to you. The above trip would end up costing us around $175 in fuel alone. That's a lot of money just to let someone kick the tires. Would it be fair to have the prospective buyer foot the bill for fuel if I do fly it to them? I'm looking for inputs from people who have actually dealt with this before.

Bill & Flight:
I do 8-15 Prebuys a year .Ultra lights to 12,500 lbs>Single'twins,helicopter from Texas to Washington > Asia to Maine , all at where the aircraft is NOW or bring it to me. Buyer has the responsibility to find a A&P /I.A. of his choosing and is responsible for getting inspector paid. I just did a P210 that will be in Wally Ponds Hanger at Medowlake (KFLY or-00V)soon. Just talked to Mike Donnley(Red white and blue N5830B 56 182) working on glider club supercub.

Bill, what is fair to pay your mech when he has to go out of town? I know the travel and hotels would be on the cost but how much a day for his services? Seems like it would ba a lot because while their sitting on a plane traveling they aren't working. Do you charge by the day, hour?

What do you do when it's in the other guys mechanics hangar and he says it is not airworthy for some reason, He tells you he won't put it back together and sign of any work? What are you going to do?
Hope it all goes well, Have Tadpole go with you in case you need a mechanic to sign something so you can get home!
Good luck!!!
GT

flynengr wrote:gbflyer wrote:

Buyer should be able to come see it on their own nickel if they're serious.

Pre-buy may be standard, but I'd hesitate to offer "paying for all repairs". There is something wrong with all of them, and 2 different inspectors will find 2 different sets of problems, guaranteed.

gb

Big difference in paying for all repairs and fixing unairworthy conditions. How does one get the thing home if it is unairworthy? I agree that two inspectors can come to different conclusions WRT airworthiness, but if my mechanic is telling me an item is unairworthy and the seller is balking at it, I'll expect my deposit back if we can't agree on a fix or compromise. Every buyer should. It ain't that difficult.

Flynengr

I agree with you, mostly. Unairworthy can also be open to interpretation, and again, 2 different inspectors will have 3 different opinions. GT above makes an excellent point.

I've bought and sold several different airplanes over the years. I have never demanded a deposit on a sale, although I was sent one once. Come look at it, bring your mechanic if you'd like, I'll buy your lunch and put you up for the night. But if I don't know you or your mechanic and you tear it down I will be looking over your shoulder while you put it back together and you'll replace every tinnerman you F-up and fix every screw you strip on your nickel so you'd better leave the cordless screw gun at home and bring your borescope. I don't fly in Kansas much...this water is cold as hell. If you want it we'll settle on a price, if you don't then see ya later. It is just an airplane. Can't say I've ever had a bad experience doing it this way.

The only 2 aircraft the seller has demanded a deposit on that I have looked at to buy I RAN away from upon a closer look-see...both from a broker. Never had any problem getting my money back, thankfully. The last one I bought had a couple of minor paperwork issues and the IA that did the last annual took care of them, no biggie. Gave the man the check and went to the house.

Hope your deal goes well bushwagon, that looks like a great 180.

gb

BW..agree with most who have posted..I have a younger brother who is an IA..saved my ass a couple of times when I was looking for a plane. The buyer should come to you with his expert (A&P, IA, etc.) at his expense. If not, HE can get a local prepurchase inspection at his cost from an independant shop. I agree, the plane is for sale, as is, where is, and as long as the plane's annual is current by your local IA, you should have nothing to fear. Any items that need attention should be taken care of before the actual purchase..in writing.
As stated by others, I would hate to have the plane away from home and have someone find that it is not airworthy, the buyer backing out, and lots of $$$$ to make it right so you could get it home.
HC