Stopped by my A&P last week and he had a Cherokee he had just grounded torn apart in the hangar. The unfortunate (first time) buyer had bought this aircraft back east, had it ferried out here and now it appears it has major corrosion issues including the carrythrough spar. The only good news is it is a Cherokee and he had only (can't believe I 'm saying only) paid 40k for it. Hey, it could be a 200k A36 or ???

The first thing I said to the A&P was too bad he didn't do a pre-buy. The A&P said "Oh, he did"! Plane also had an annual done 90 days prior.

So, the questions are: Who's GOING to be out 40k? Who SHOULD be out 40k? What could have been done differently?

I feel bad for the owner whom thought he had done everything right but is now in a huge mess. Welcome to aviation... Yikes !!!

How bad is the corrosion? Maybe your mechanic expects the aluminum to shine like the day it left the factory and anything less is unairworthy. I'd get a second opinion. If the second agrees I'd get someone official to visit the mechanic that signed it off.
Marty

Marty, the A&P that has grounded it told me he would not fly it and I've always thought he was pretty easy going. He also said that it was not all hidden by any means and that a good look at even skin rivets told him there was a problem before he ever saw the carry through. This guy has about 20 years experience, that I know of so I would probably say the grounding is legit.

Jr., yup, anybody can be sued for anything these days. I would say the 40k will be tough to get back through legal means.

I don't see a good outcome or any kind of solution.

The way I have done it was to ask my A&P/AI to find another A&P/AI that he was comfortable with in that area to do the pre-buy and not rely on the seller to arrange that.

But that's closing the barn door after the horse is out.

Mark

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:Just out of curiosity what was it about the rivets that the mechanic noticed?

Oxidation / corrosion to the point of pitting around the area of the rivets. Sometimes you can even see an almost electrolytic reaction as if the rivet and skin were disimilar. (Which of course they're not)

Interestingly enough, there is no Definition of a pre-buy, or the work to be accomplished during one. About the only way the owner would have a ghost of a chance with the prebuy mech. is if he had a written contract with him specifing what area's he wanted looked at. Many of the guys who agree to do a pre-buy spend most of their time looking at the log books to see what is there. Or what is there but not written down. Sometimes the type of parts listed replaced will tell you it has ground loop damage or has been under water even if the logs don't actually say that.
If you have a Annual done and your mechanic is less than complete, that is Defined by the FAR's and you have some leverage by being friendly and letting him know you are inviting the FAA to your party as well. But that only works if the annual was very recently done and the damage can be proven to have existed at the time it was signed off.
I once had a guy insist that I owed him an engine OHV on the 150 he bought 18 months before W/O a prepurchase or annual or oil screen check because I had signed the annual a year and a half earlier. Some time after the annual the starter solenoid stuck and burned up the starter filling the engine with metal. I respectfully declined to play along and he called the FAA, who promptly told him to get lost. There is a reason the Annual sign off should say Airworthy this Date, for many reasons sometimes it won't be next week. This case does sound as if it wasn't airworthy 3 months ago either.FWIW

This is a tough one, and probably happening more and more these days as our aircraft continue to age and build time and neglect.

As noted, there's no definition of a pre-buy, and for that reason, if I were buying an airplane, I'd insist on an annual inspection as a condition of sale. I'd want to make absolutely certain that I had a chat with the mechanic (one I chose) about my expectations of this inspection: as in-I want to be told EVERY little thing even vaguely questionable about this airplane. If at all possible, I'd want to be present during the annual.

You may be able to get the seller to agree to split the cost of the annual if you decide not to buy, but in any case, you'll come out with a lot better idea of what's up with the plane.

Even good mechanics miss stuff too, by the way, so the prospective owner really needs to go look at the airplane VERY critically. Not that easy to do, by the way.

The last airplane I bought, I had already found some significant (but easily repaired) corrosion before the inspection. The maintenance guys didn't find it, I pointed it out, and they then really took that airplane apart to verify they hadn't missed anything else. These are competent mechanics, by the way. They just missed something.

Get involved. This is big money, and a plane ticket isn't too ugly an addition to the cost.

MTV

I wont do prebuy inspections anymore, and for the very reasons that are all stated above!! I've been an aircraft mechanic for 20+ years and have seen alot of variance between people's technique and comfort level. A friend of mine bought a 310 years ago, from a guy that had it maintained by an A&P school... I flew down and gave it a quick once over, then told him we should bring it to my hangar and give it an annual, with the sale based on passing the annual. To make a long story short, he bought it, then flew it to me, and we started an annual... NONE of the AD's on the mags had actually been done...they were recorded and signed off, but not actually DONE... there was problem after problem...and the FAA wasn't much help... The teacher that had signed stuff off was one of the "good ol' boys", so nobody wanted to do much to him (except me and the guy that had bought the plane!!!)... needless to say, it was a very expensive lesson for my friend!
I've found that the best way to get it inspected, is to have the mechanic that is going to maintain it, do the inspection, and make it an annual. The biggest waste of time is someone wanting a $250 prebuy.... all it does in my eyes, is give a false sense of confidence. If the owner isn't wanting to cooperate on this inspection, there's a pretty good chance that there's something there he really doesn't want you to find... and the price can be negotiated accordingly. I have no problem going somewhere and doing the annual in someone else's shop, or having them come do one in mine if they're in this situation.... sorta puts all the cards on the table..
JH

Alright, another mechanic on the board. Welcome.

Yup, I have my A&P...or what ever they call it now, so make that one more.

Most pre-buys usually include a quick check of the AD list, log books, a compression test, screen/filter check and a casual look around.

A lot of mechanics that do pre-buy inspections will include a disclaimer on the invoice saying the pre-buy is to check the general appearance of the aircraft and logbooks and does not take the place of an annual inspection. Some mechanics simply refuse to do pre-buys.

Your better off getting the aircraft off it's homefield to a reputable mechanic to do a full blown annual. Finding a mechanic that specializes in the specific type of aircraft is even better.