Hello all,
I have been an outside observer to BCP and this is my first time posting. I'm a new pilot and am looking to buy my first psuedo-bush airplane (2006 Wilga PZL-104MA) airplane and would like much needed advise;

I'm driving to Idaho this weekend to look at the airplane in person. I am meeting with the independant mechanic who has taken care of it for the last 3-4 years. I have been unable to find a A&P who is able to do a pre-purchase inspection, so I am relying on the current mechanic to take me through the airplane. I have a BSME and MSEE so I know mechanical/electrical systems well enough not to be fooled.

I would like to take a flight in it, but the broker tells me it is not currently insured. Is a pre-purchase flight a must? Or would I be incredible foolish to request a flight after a price has been negotiated and earnest money has been deposited? The final purchase would absolutely be contingent upon a successful demonstration but am not sure of the importance of it before or after the deal has been negotiated.

Please & Thank You!!
-Ryan

I wouldn't buy anything (other than a project) without taking it for a demonstration flight.

It might look great on the ground but fly like crap due to bad rigging or a poor repair that put a twist in something.

Just my opinion.

First of all I'd say that most brokers are as useful as a bag of dicks. All they do is get in the way, try to peddle crap, and drive the price up... When I bough my Wagon I told the broker that if he came to the pre-purchase inspection I would leave. He was taken aback, but stayed away. My deal was with the owner and saved me $10k.

Maybe its just me... but buying an airplane w/out getting a chance to fly it screams of a bad deal. If it's not insured, it means its probably not getting flown, and if its not getting flown, there is probably some reason. If its been sitting, even more a reason to get it looked at by an objective set of eyes. If they really want to sell it, have em insure it.

Moreover, I would not rely on the previous mechanic for any substantive advice other than to answer questions that a trusted mechanic brought to light. Unless you really know your stuff and the deal is smoking, get a good non-biased advocate to steer you around the pitfalls. Sometimes its fine, but if you dont know what you dont know it can really cost you a ton.

I know your probably super excited and anxious, but the best thing to do is to have patience, and not put ANY money on the table until you have had a chance to fly her and then had YOUR mechanic look at it. There are plenty of good APs out there that can help... Just keep looking and take your time.

Good luck!

If they want to sell it, they'll insure it. If they're not even doing that basic step then they are possibly either foolish, lazy, disinterested, or hiding something. None of those things speak well for a previous owner, as you're inheriting whatever they did, or didn't do to the aircraft.

Not sure how far a trip it is for you, but I wouldn't bother if I couldn't fly it. I'd just tell the broker to contact you when it's insured and perhaps you can line up an independent mechanic in the mean time.

The mechanic who's been taking care of it might be a great wrench and an honest person, but everyone is blind to their own faults. If he/she is reputable then they shouldn't have any problem with another mechanic doing a pre-buy and contacting them with questions. It's a lot of money and you want to get it right.

bigrenna wrote:... buying an airplane w/out getting a chance to fly it screams of a bad deal. If it's not insured, it means its probably not getting flown, and if its not getting flown, there is probably some reason. If its been sitting, even more a reason to get it looked at by an objective set of eyes. If they really want to sell it, have em insure it. .....

I too wouldn't buy an unknown airplane without test-flying it. Insured or bareback, owner's choice. But fly it before the ownership changes hands.

Sometimes the reason an airplane is not getting flown is just because .... it's not getting flown. Loss of interest, no money, too many airplanes, pilot / owner died, whatever. Not necessarily anything wrong with the airplane, except maybe out of annual.

Thanks for all the inputs!
I'm trying to contact the owner and bypass the broker to get some straight forward answers. I just learned that the broker wasn't even planing to be there himself to talk/deal. Not even sure if I'll have access to the hanger at this point or keys to start the motor. I'm beginning to have doubts. I'll keep posting w/ updates and hopefully I'll talk to the owner directly soon!

Agreed with all the points. I wonder if Cory might be able to help.

On a side note, the MA looks swoopy!

I agree with all who have commented. Talk to M6Rv6 on here. He has one. I have flow one and liked it, but the guy who bought it ended up selling it for a big loss because he couldn't afford the expensive parts from Poland to keep it in license.

CamTom12 wrote:Agreed with all the points. I wonder if Cory might be able to help.

On a side note, the MA looks swoopy!

What did they do to the poor thing?
It looks like they replaced the radial with a Rotax

(I'm his brother by the way) the one he's looking at has an IO-540, so I'd personally take that over the radial.

Update with some good news:
-Talked with the mechanic and GM of the hanger, Wilga is ready to be seen.
-Talked with the owner and he had set up a pilot who is on the insurance policy and is ready to take us flying on Friday. Wish the broker could have answered that one for me.

I guess the sentiment that brokers are as useful as a "bag-o-dicks" is holding true, LOL.

I'll posts pics on Friday, if all goes well.

-Ryan

That is one cool looking bird, in a funky kind of way.

Like a TVR Tuscan, but of the air. You crazy eastern European designers.......

I agree that brokers can be pretty useless. But, you also need to understand who you are dealing with. If a broker is actually contracted by the owner, as in with a formal brokerage agreement, you WILL have to deal with the broker. The owner can make a deal, but the owner will then have to pay the broker's fee.

The broker is representing the owner, not the buyer. That's important to understand. He's not your representative. But, if he's doing his job, he'll make sure the airplane is available for inspection, and facilitate inspection, test flight, etc. If he's not, that's the buyer's problem, because the broker is going to get paid.

As to a pre-buy: I would NEVER use the owner's mechanic (who has been signing off annuals) for a pre-buy. Like, under no circumstances. He may well have been signing off a totally unairworthy airplane, and you're going to buy it?? He may have missed ADs that he overlooked, paperwork may not be in the logs to cover mods, etc. Waaaaaay too much risk to this. And, again, bear in mind that this mechanic represents the owner of the airplane. Do you think he's going to discover an AD that he's been overlooking, and tell you about it???

As to flying an airplane prior to purchase: I've owned seven airplanes over the years. Never flew any of them prior to purchase. But, every one was thoroughly and carefully inspected by MY mechanic prior to the purchase. If a mechanic knows what he's looking for, there's really no reason an airplane shouldn't fly just fine. Perhaps I'm the exception. But, every one of those airplanes that I've sold (six to date) the buyer didn't fly prior to me selling it to him, either.

But, get a pre buy done by an independent mechanic who knows something about the type. And tell them that you essentially want them to perform an annual inspection. That's the depth I want a pre buy done....and after you take it home, you've got his signature on the logs. If anything comes up later, you've got leverage.

My last pre-buy was done by a DAR who was a friend, and he issued a new airworthiness certificate at the conclusion of the Pre-buy. That was good enough for me.

MTV

I knew MTV would have the best answers to your questions. As pilots, we can determine a little about the airworthiness of an aircraft with a pre-flight and by flying it. We can in no way determine the airworthiness of an aircraft in the ways a mechnaic does.

When I was young and poor, I leased Pawnees and Callairs that had absolutely nothing in the log books except annual inspections. One pipeline patrol company I worked for had an excellent mechanic and very airworthy airplanes. Another company I worked for at a much higher price per mile had immaculate paperwork, good lawyers, and very unsafe airplanes. I lost a windscreen because the boss wouldn't let the mechanic safety wire stitch a crack or put a new one in, I almost had a 172 burn up because he wouldn't let the mechanic replace an exhaust stack and the mechanic wouldn't make an illegal weld (crack was about six inches long.) I flew two weeks (50 hours) on one mag because the boss budgeted maintenance and I was not due for a new dual mag for the 0-320 H2AD engine.

As pilots we don't always know what is going on inside the airplane. Logs can represent what is going on inside or not, depending on the quality of the operator and mechanic.

For sure MTV has great advice... but now way would I buy w/out test flying. You can have a fantastic mechanic that has been around the block, but there are some things that only a good pilot can feel. Lots of TW A/C have been looped, and an airplane might look nice and have the proper parts installed, but you can't "see" a wonkily rigged airplane. You got to "feel" it.

Like a crooked tail Pawnee. Halfway through the day, the knee on the leg that has to hold rudder all day is jumping up and down involuntarily.

I always tell the buyer to bring the mechanic that's going to be working on it, to do the prebuy. Like MTV says, it should be an annual. I wont waste anyone's time on a "prebuy" for a couple hundred bucks....I'd rather just tag along and make them feed me and give my opinion on a weekend, or let's get into this thing properly and do an annual. Every mechanic isn't going to see the same things and every mechanic doesn't have the same interpretation of regs and conditions. I've had a plane come in for a prebuy that was maintained by a DME (mechanic examiner) and a couple A&P teachers, and it was a real pile of crap!! There were AD's that hadn't ever been done, yet were signed off. So I guess what I'm saying is DO NOT use the mechanic that's been working on it....use the guy that's going to be working on it!
My 2 cent's worth, and worth what you paid for it....
John

As an A&P, I would not buy an airplane that I did the pre-buy inspection on without flying it.

So... Do any of you know of an A&P with wilga experience in the PNW (specifically Oregon or Idaho)?

Driving out tonight to look/fly the airplane tomorrow. If all goes well I'll look to schedule an A&P for an inspection. I tried to find one through SavvyMX but they said the airplane is too rare and cannot help.

As my brother said, Anyone know of a OR/ID mechanic whom is not scared of a polish plane???