I am new here and I hope this is in the right forum.

I flew to an EAA sponsored fly-in and was directed by an EAA member with batons to follow him to off-tarmac parking as the ramp was full. He directed me into a pothole in the grass deep enough to cause a prop strike. I now have to deal with the ramifications of that, probably totaling $3,500. (Prop strike AD inspection, prop overhaul). I inquired about the EAA's insurance and have not yet heard back, but fear they may be balking. Who you think should cover this -- me or the EAA's insurance?

Damn, Sucks. I had a Tandem passenger (not my customer) pull my covered emergency exit handle and the emergency exit door went into a corn field from 13,000 ft. Viking wanted $50k and 21 weeks. Lost a month of revenue. Guess who paid? Does it do any good to start a war with a bunch of volunteers with $100 in the clubs account? These are expensive toys and sometimes we have to be prepared to suck it up and be tough aviators. ( I sniveled for a good 5 weeks) Maybe if you were pulling into Signature or a big time FBO. I don’t always follow line guys directions because I’m the one that would have to get a rental car home if he Fs up.

Here is a direct contact with EAA...Please don't give her my name..she and I have went around some in the recent past. Good luck with your claim!


Liesl Wrolstad, EAA# 1011919

Insurance Administrator

EAA—The Spirit of Aviation



Phone: 920.426.6106

Fax: 920.426.6865



http://www.eaa.org

Very unfortunate outcome to an event which is intended to be all fun.

I believe the pilot carries the ultimate responsibility and shouldn't taxi into areas that are not familiar or completely visible. I had a volunteer at a Idaho fly in try to motion me into some tall grass where I couldn't see as good as I wanted so I shut down and walked it first. I think the guy felt insulted but after I explained my position he understood why I did it and we walked away after a handshake and a smile. Sorry to hear about your prop strike and I'm sure neither of you will let that happen again.

66skylane wrote:....I believe the pilot carries the ultimate responsibility and shouldn't taxi into areas that are not familiar or completely visible.....

This is my feeling also.... unless someone who is part of the fly-in operation directs you into trouble. I had some spirited discussion with some of the other people involved with the fly-in at my home airport-- they were all adamant about the need for airplane marshalling,whereas having seen this "directed into a pothole" thing happen before I was of the opinion that we should just let everybody taxi on their own.
This is a wake-up call for anybody involved with a fly-in-- if you're gonna have people marshalling airplanes, make sure that the marshallers know what the hell they're doing and that they are VERY careful about where they direct aircraft. Unfortunately this is NOT the first time I've heard about such a thing happening. If it ain't a pothole, it's the marshaller waving someone ahead & not watching the wingtips (other planes' propellers & rudders are common casualties).
If it was me, Peddler, I'd contact my own insurance company & explain what happened & see what they want to do. Hope it works out OK for you.

Eric

Let's see.....they call them.....Pilot in Command, for WHAT reason??

Good grief, let's take a little responsibility for our own safety and well being. Don't EVER let someone with a set of batons direct you onto ground you wouldn't taxi on on your own.

A lawsuit is a GREAT way to bring an end to sponsored air shows, by the way, and the major reason that EAA dropped coverage on several major events, and took their name off those. At least one of those events died as a result.

MTV

While I agree with the PIC comments, if the EAA isn't willing to accept the liability, then there shouldn't be official marshallers. If everyone is to self park, then there is no question where the fault lies. Otherwise, the waters are muddied and the door is opened for confusion and/or pressure to follow someone that is assumed to be in a position of authority, i.e. someone working for the fly-in in a pretty yellow vest telling you where to park. I think that most would assume that if the fly-in is providing marshallers, they have been vetted as knowing what they are doing. And if they screw up, they share responsibility. Of course we know what assuming gets you...

Sorry to hear about it and hope that you make out ok. Good luck!

this year at the Twin Bridges fly-in the CAP kids were directing ground ops and tying down aircraft, as soon as i shut down they where pushing the plane around, i jumped out and told them to get away from the plane (they had no idea if mags where off) they tried to tie the plane down and i told them to back off again, the leader walked over and I told him I'm the authority over this aircraft and i was not going to let 16 year old kids tie it down

The EAA chapter didn’t charge you for flying in or for parking, Did they? I agree that by putting a claim against them you will be doing more damage to your local General Aviation than the prop took. You went to enjoy and support the organization, right? If you drove your $50K Escalade to a high scale restaurant, had the Valet park it for you, you would have blown $400 for a party of 4. You come out and there is a scrape down the fender. The Valet Company will only cover your deductable. The restaurant brings in a lot of money on you, that is one of their expenses. It still really boils down to you were the Pilot in Command, Your F up, you had help f ing up, but still yours. You will know better next time.

A few of the replies seem a little harsh. Even if some of the grizzled old veterans would never take direction from a marshaler, or let CAP kids in uniform tie down their aircraft, the less grizzled amongst us who are used to following authorities at group events like the EAA fly-in are not likely to be as assertive, and this leads to unfortunate incidents like the original poster suffered.

A couple of thoughts:

1) from the perspective of legal liability, the EAA is certainly liable for part if not all of the costs of repairing the aircraft, on the basis that they assumed liability when they had marshalers directing the taxiing and parking of aircraft .... in court, the EAA is almost certainly a sure loser

2) Asking for an insurer to cover a loss is not the same as suing the EAA ... it's entirely reasonable for the original poster to file a claim for his loss ... that's what insurance is for. If the EAA and their carrier refuse to recognize and pay a claim, or to enter into a negotiated settlement with the claimant, then the next step is for the claimant to decide if it's worth filing a lawsuit to get a recovery ... if it were me, I certainly wouldn't file a lawsuit ... I've been through the litigation ringer before, albeit on a far larger scale than $3,500 to repair an airplane, and all I can say is that the potential payoff better be damn big and quite certain as well, or it ain't gonna be worth it!

Lessons learned:

1) Fly-in event organizers should avoid at all costs having marshalers direct taxiing aircraft on unpaved ground .. you're just asking for trouble ... even if somebody suffers a loss and decides not to file a claim or to sue you, you just cost someone a bunch of money outa their pocket ... that's hardly the way to run an event that's supposed to be fun and enjoyable.

2) Those of us who might have taken direction from a marshaler off the pavement - don't! Unless you personally know the marshaler and know that they know the ground, Stop the engine, turn off the mags, get out of the aircraft, and personally walk the path, and not just the centerline either! Use a towbar, preferably, to position the aircraft.

I think nmflyguy did a good job of summarizing a good recommendation.

My point was and still is, however, the PILOT is responsible for positioning the aircraft, NOT a marshaller, sanctioned or not. Every pilot should be willing to simply say "no" to any operation that a person with a set of wands suggests, IF the pilot in command isn't comfortable with the operation. Remember, these aren't airline marshallers, and often they're people who aren't very familiar with airplanes, frankly.

And, while a claim against an insurance company isn't quite the same as a claim against the organizers of the event, it may precipitate loss of coverage, and death of an event.

I have one question for the original poster: What "EAA" event was this? My understanding is that the national EAA organization dropped its association with virtually ALL fly ins except Air Venture last year.

So, was this REALLY an "EAA event" or was it a chapter event? Was the event ACTUALLY covered by insurance? Or, would an award be taken out of the hides of the local chapter?

Also, it's great advice for anyone offering an event of any kind to be VERY careful who you use as marshallers, lest they incur liabilities that they can't sustain.

MTV

mtv wrote:I think nmflyguy did a good job of summarizing a good recommendation.

My point was and still is, however, the PILOT is responsible for positioning the aircraft, NOT a marshaller, sanctioned or not. Every pilot should be willing to simply say "no" to any operation that a person with a set of wands suggests, IF the pilot in command isn't comfortable with the operation. Remember, these aren't airline marshallers, and often they're people who aren't very familiar with airplanes, frankly.

And, while a claim against an insurance company isn't quite the same as a claim against the organizers of the event, it may precipitate loss of coverage, and death of an event.

I have one question for the original poster: What "EAA" event was this? My understanding is that the national EAA organization dropped its association with virtually ALL fly ins except Air Venture last year.

So, was this REALLY an "EAA event" or was it a chapter event? Was the event ACTUALLY covered by insurance? Or, would an award be taken out of the hides of the local chapter?

Also, it's great advice for anyone offering an event of any kind to be VERY careful who you use as marshallers, lest they incur liabilities that they can't sustain.

MTV

MYV..Your getting awful close to the situation I came up against when I tried to get EAA insurance for a couple of flyins..they just don't want the risk anymore..something to ponder for anybody's next flyin.
HC

I added one more item to #2 in "Lessons Learned": turn off the mags

Some of you know my background so here is my .02...by the way I am also an EAA board member and Event Boss for the annual Mid TN Fly In.

Call your insurance agent and let the adjustor handle your problem. This is what you pay them for. There is no reason to waste your time or money trying to fix the problem when you could be back up in the air while the adjustor picks up the cards after the game is played.

Calling Liesl Wrolstad wont get you very far, she is the Insurance Administrator for EAA, not the agent or the underwriter. The EAA insurance is written through Marsh using a pool of underwriters. Your adjustor will be the one best equipped to deal with the correct people IF there is reason to subrogate the claim.

Having said that, was the marshaler an EAA member / volunteer, or did they belong to another organization that was helping he EAA? Many chapters make the mistake of using the local CAP cadets or other groups without having them added as additional insureds on the policy which causes gaps in the coverage. Was the land that the fly in was being held at owned by the EAA? Doubtful...this means that they may not be responsible for the reasonable upkeep of the property for use as a parking area. The liability could rest with the FBO or airport. Again, let your adjustor determine all these things after you are happily back in the air.

We get a number of these claims each year and they usually end up with the aircraft owner's policy paying out. The PIC is responsible for the safe operation...even when following a marshaler. We see claims on wingtips being directed into other aircraft or buildings and it still falls on the PIC...if he can see the wingtip from his seat then he is responsible for verifying the clearance before proceeding. This is the same scenario with a pothole. If you are in doubt, verify before proceeding. Shut down and walk the area before pulling the airplane into the parking spot or starting up to continue to the taxi. At the end of the day, the marshalers at these events (including OSH and SNF) are volunteers and they are trying to help make your experience safe and enjoyable. They have no intent of causing damage, but accidents happen. They will feel terrible for being part of the incident, but you will be left with a broken plane.

This same practice should be followed when dealing with ATC...you are the PIC so if you are unsure of the safety of a clearance or direction..."Unable" or "Cannot Comply" and maintain safe operation while getting clarification or alternate instructions. Jack Roush comes to mind...

Sorry about the damage to your airplane...call your insurance agent and let the adjustor get you back in the air.

mtv wrote:
I have one question for the original poster: What "EAA" event was this? My understanding is that the national EAA organization dropped its association with virtually ALL fly ins except Air Venture last year.

So, was this REALLY an "EAA event" or was it a chapter event? Was the event ACTUALLY covered by insurance? Or, would an award be taken out of the hides of the local chapter?

Mike-

The EAA national is still associated with chapter fly-in's...there is no way to disassociate themselves as the chapters must be approved for charter and pay yearly dues to be part of the national organization. Having said that, when hosting an event a chapter must submit the proper paperwork to National for insurance approval. This is sort of a misnomer because as part of EAA, a chapter event will be covered unlees it has elements that void the coverage (pyro, aerobatic demonstrations, etc) but the underwriters prefer to know what they are risking. This paperwork (now online) outlines the who, when, where and what for of the event. For instance, the Mid TN Fly In is primarily sponsored by Chapter 863, but we are also co-sponsored by the Military Vehicle Preservation Society and we use the CAP senior cadets for marshaling and crowd control. We also have vendors, vehicles, police, and military participants which must all be disclosed. Along with our insurance, National requires proof of insurance from the participants naming EAA as additional insured for just such reasons as started this thread. Historically I have not had any issues in getting the insurance "approved" and usually have a certificate in hand within 7 days of it's request.

Low,

Thanks for the information. My comments were based on news articles from last year or the year before, indicating that EAA was no longer affiliated with Copperstate, and other shows. Those are obviously airshows, not chapter fly ins, so probably different deal.

Your explanation and suggestion makes a lot of sense. Unless he doesn't have insurance, of course.

MTV

Pretty sure you are correct on the EAA association with "airshows". SNF has it's own sponsoring organization although it is often thought to be an EAA deal. I believe AirVenture is the only true "airshow" sponsored by the EAA, but that is of course their annual "fly-in" which has grown into a full blown "airshow". I have to be careful with our Mid TN Fly In to make sure it is not an "airshow" for a number of reasons including the EAA backing, but also the FAA. Fly-Ins are part of the heart & soul of the EAA so i doubt they will ever stop sponsoring those events...unless of course they become a litigious deathtrap for the organization.

If he does not have insurance than he will probably still be better off to fix it himself than to try hire an attorney to file a formal claim against the EAA. If you don't have insurance then you probably should not go to fly-ins unless you are willing to accept the elevated risk of damage to the aircraft.

mtv wrote:Remember, these aren't airline marshallers, and often they're people who aren't very familiar with airplanes, frankly.

MTV

Whoa! Hold on here! That sounds like you are insinuating that airline marshallers are the cream of the crop! You'd probably be surprised at how poorly a good chunk of them marshal. More often than not we are left wondering who trained them and what they were told. At least there are no potholes to taxi into or props to ground strike. So long as all the equipment is outside of the painted lines, your reasonably assured that you won't hit anything. At my home base, we went to an auto docking system, which was a refreshing change.