Not sure it's a bush plane, but I've put a deposit down on a 1948 Stinson 108-3 Flying Station Wagon. In my price range, no recurring ADs, and a practical useful load. Plus loads of old-school airplane character. My first plane. Needless to say I'm pretty excited.
The panel's pretty dated of course but otherwise it looks like a pretty nice vintage plane. And when I time the engine out, I've got lots of options for upgrade if I wish.
It's in northern CA so after I get checked out in it my first real flight will be an 800 mile cross country back to AZ. So if you guys never hear from me again, tell them to look for my bones somewhere in the Sierra Nevadas. (OK I admit it, I'll probably be staying in view of the highway as much as possible on this flight!)

That wasn't the pretty little burgundy one I've seen on Ebay and elsewhere for sale is it? I find the 108's to be particularly attractive. I don't know if it's just that they are so aesthetically appealing...or if it has to do with those bush flying stories I read as a kid Congratulations on your new purchase, and safe travels home with her.
Paris

It may have been the one you saw. It's maroon and I did see it initially on eBay although I didn't buy it through eBay. The owner is about 40 miles from my wife's parents' house and she was going to go there next month to visit anyway. Now we'll just go there with one-way tickets and fly ourselves home, hopefully uneventfully. I can use a little adventure, albeit preferably not Survivorman style adventure!

Congrates Skycop. Never personally flown a Stinson, but have always heard good things about them. Simple and straight forward airplane. I have 2 friends that fly Stinsons with the Franklin engine and never heard one complaint.

Looking forward to some stories and pictures.

Fly safe Bub

Congrats on your purchase. I have owned my 108-2 for two years now and I have a few good friends with -3s. If you are not already registered, the Yahoo Stinson group is the best (free) forum and the International Stinson Club is the membership-required alternative.

I wouldn't say that the Stinson is the answer for everyone, but it has suited my purposes well. While I consider it a modest little plane I am always amazed at the attention it draws. I personally prefer the aesthetics of the -2, but I do envy the higher gross weight and extra 10 gallons of fuel on the -3. I also believe the -3 is ever so slightly more directionally stable in flight.

I wish I could say that my ownership experience has been smooth sailing, but about a month ago I had a problem with an exhaust valve that punched a hole in the piston. Not a fun experience and I have learned a lot about my engine (F165) and Franklins in general in the process of getting repairs done. The Franklin is a good engine but it does have some idiosyncrasies - most importantly burn mogas! If you don't have access to alcohol-free mogas get some TCP to add to your LL.

Good luck with the flight home!

BTW, just noticed that you are picking up your plane in northern CA - I just moved there/here. I'm not a mechanic but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express on the trip out here and I have lots of lessons learned from my plane, so if you need any help when you pick it up or have questions just drop a line.

Cheers - Vick

Thanks Vick, actually I have read your story and was wondering about the whole fuel thing. Why does the engine so much prefer mogas over 100LL? What problem does the 100LL cause in the Franklin that does not occur in other engines? The owner says he always tried to burn mogas when possible, but obviously mogas isn't always available at airports and if you're flying cross-country 100LL is it. Other than some plug fouling, he didn't mention any other issues with 100LL. He also explained to me a little test he does to check if the fuel is an alcohol blend or not. He hasn't burned any of that (ethanol) in it, but if that's what is available, is it to be totally avoided or can it be used? I'm not sure anything but ethanol is available here, especially in the winter for pollution reasons. Unless I can get gas from some specialty cardlock place.
So what it boils down to is that I might be stuck with 100LL most of the time. That being the case, what does the TCP you mentioned do to help?
Pardon my ignorance of the subject but everything I typically fly in burns either Jet A or 100LL so this is new territory from me and I'm happy to learn from those who have "been there, done that".
I'm also going to have to check out the Stinson groups you mentioned. I've looked over the Stinson club website but I won't join until it's a done deal and I've got a Stinson parked at home
I'll be hopping onto the Yahoo group for sure now!

Read this, I like MMO. http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm

I burn oil on the governments dime at work too, so everything I practice with regard to gas in a Franklin I learned from the tribal elders of the Stinson community. No doubt A64 has vastly more experience than I do and I am no chemist (my father is though), but I run mogas with MMO when able and 100LL with TCP when that is all I can get.

The issue with 100LL in a Franklin (particularly the 150, but the 165 also) is that it was designed to run on unleaded gas. The valves do not need lead and are in fact highly intolerant of the lead in 100LL - which has more lead than the name implies. So within a few tanks of straight LL most report sticking valves at a minimum. TCP helps scavenge the lead from the combustion chamber without sticking to the valves. Those who routinely use 100LL with TCP report none of the issues that 100LL alone will cause. When I lived in NC alcohol-free gas was readily available unless I was on a cross-country. I carried a bottle of TCP to add as needed and never had any problems.

It turns out that the valve problem I experienced had nothing to do with lead, but rather cast iron valve guides and incorrect exhaust valves. I didn't know this until the engine came apart for the repairs. I bought my plane with ~150 hours on the engine (OH'd by a reputable Franklin builder) and flew it fat, dumb, and happy thinking that I had a solid engine under the hood. Now I am of the mind that you are hard pressed to believe anything that you haven't personally verified. Do you know who last overhauled the engine you are buying?

As for alcohol in the fuel, both the EAA and Peterson mogas STC's prohibit gas with alcohol added. There is a simple test you can do to test for its presence. You can read lengthy discussions on the negative effects of alcohol on this site and on the Yahoo Stinson group, but in short alcohol absorbs water which is both corrosive to your fuel system and reduces the energy in a given volume of gas.

On a sidenote, after I got my plane back to the homefield I tore the whole front clip off and am replacing it with the O-470 Super Stinson conversion. Very pricey mod that I largely justify by my new local environment - high terrain and real backcountry opportunities. I thought that the F165 was perfectly adequate for my sea level flying when I lived in NC and had I stayed there I would have stuck with the Franklin.

If you haven't already done so get registered on the Yahoo Stinson group and start picking through the archives - there is tons of useful info buried in there and lots of active participants who will be very recepive to your new owner inquiries.

skycop wrote:So what it boils down to is that I might be stuck with 100LL most of the time. That being the case, what does the TCP you mentioned do to help?

TCP, better known as TriCresyl Phosphate, combines with the lead in 100LL avgas at combustion temperatures above about 900 degrees (about 1000 RPM with lean mixture) and turns it into a softer and slipperier material so that it does not adhere to valves or valve guides or inside the spark plug. I have used it for 15 years and I have never had a sticky valve or a fouled spark plug. I usually only clean my plugs at 100 hour intervals. Leaning aggressively to the point of killing the engine above 1200 RPM for ground operations has helped a lot too.

If you are going to do that you MUST either be full rich or so lean that the engine will not run above 1200RPM or someday you WILL takeoff with a lean mix and maybe fry your engine.

It is nasty stuff so don't get it on your hands or let it spill inside the airplane. SkyGeek.com has it for less than most suppliers.

Rocky

A64, I meant to mention...I was under the impression that MMO and TCP do different things. MMO is a detergent and TCP is a scavenging agent. The supercub discussion states that they are both simply detergents. Thoughts?

Vick wrote:...... I'm not a mechanic but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express on the trip ............ Cheers - Vick

I musta been asleep at the switch when the Holiday Inn Express joke was first made.....wazzup with dat?

Eric

I think that you will like the plane. The lead issues has been well discussed by others in this string, watch it, use TCP and burn mogas when you can. It is true this engine was designed to be used with fuel with no lead in it at all. the 165 will do you well, it makes good power. It is not a 220 horse cub. Watch the yellow arc if you have a metal prop, say out of it, the lower end of the yellow arc is just about where you feel you should be on down wind. Just lower a few hundred more and you will be sweet.

CONGRATULATIONS!

Vick wrote:A64, I meant to mention...I was under the impression that MMO and TCP do different things. MMO is a detergent and TCP is a scavenging agent. The supercub discussion states that they are both simply detergents. Thoughts?

I think you are exactly right. I think that MMO and transmission fluid do similar things, high detergent. A difference is that I think MMO is kerosene or some other light solvent based that pretty quickly flashes off if put in tbe crankcase.
I don't have much experience with TCP though. I'm fixing to purchase a C-140 with the C-85, looks like I'm going to get experience with it.
Either way, I know there are several engines that don't tolerate 100 LL well.

Congrats on the Stinson!!! You'll love it!!!
JH

Congrats, dude! I think those 108's are really nice looking. Don't be afraid to put a few bucks into a pre-buy annual. You won't ever be sorry you did your due diligence.

Z

That is very true. There is a link on the Yahoo stinson group that is specific for these planes for a per buy and what to look for. Go get it.

Whew! Sorry, when I saw the thread title I couldn't help but think of that old WWII comic of a GI shooting his broken Jeep.
Thought maybe you were giving up on a Stinson.

Phil

Thanks for all the great comments guys.
Sounds like just carrying TCP (carefully) is the general consensus both here and the Yahoo Stinson group. So if I can't get non-ethanol mogas, that's what I'll do.
As for a pre-buy, the owner included a fresh annual with the sale, which is in-progress. He sent me a bunch of pictures today of things taken apart and their condition and whatnot since I've never seen the airplane before. Obviously you can't tell a lot of detail from the photos but everything looks pretty clean inside the fuselage, the cables look nice and fresh, the engine looks clean, the axles look good, new brakes, new spark plugs, good compressions, etc... The IA's rating rests on that sign-off so I'll trust it for what it's worth. I don't have any connections to an independent A&P or IA there to do a pre-buy anyway, so anyone I would have found would have been just as much of a crap-shoot. Sometimes "you just pays your money and takes your chances". I'm the kind of guy who tends to do so much research before a purchase that I almost over-research it. The problem that caused me when looking at planes is that when I found a reasonable deal, by time I did my research and contacted the seller, the plane already was spoken for. I didn't want that to happen again, so I jumped on it. Hopefully there will be few or no regrets. The owner is an older guy who's owned the plane for decades and is kind of getting out of flying. He sounds like a stand-up gentleman, so so far there's no reason for me to doubt his integrity on the conditon of the plane.
So hopefully it will be a great plane for years to come. When I time out the engine I'd like to do the Franklin 220 conversion or a similar STC. And then maybe even put it on amphib floats at some point (if any are ever available for the Stinson)

Obviously every purchase is different, but let me offer my experience for comparison sake. First personal aircraft purchase, plane was about 400 miles from me. The seller (A&P) had the plane torn apart for an annual (fresh with sale!) and welcomed me to come take a look. Seemed like a stand-up guy. I did as much ground work as could be done under the circumstances to include a general pre-buy administered by an IA friend. Didn't manage to get a test flight in before pickup day though.

It looked all bright and shiny when I arrived. I was drooling - you could have told me one wing was about to fall off and I probably would have flown off with it anyway. What I really needed was someone more detached there with me to provide perspective to counter my blind enthusiasm.

Did a quick test flight with the seller in the left seat (brakes only on the left side). That's funny - the airspeed and altimiter are erratic. Seller says they worked fine the other day. Again, blinded by visions of backcountry adventures in my new plane I believed him. Probably just some dust or something in the pitot.

I hand him the check and fly it back to NC. Last fuel stop on the way home
the plane won't start, starter won't even try, totally dead. Called seller - "I don't know what to tell you, it worked fine when I sold it to you". Found local mechanic on field who mercifully troubleshot to a bad starter solenoid and got me on my way (seems that so many of the mechs I meet are heaven sent).

My mechanic back in NC does some work to install a radio and xponder and in the process pulls apart the pitot line, airspeed, and altimeter. Finds the line full of water and both instruments junked by years of rot. No way these have worked recently.

Was I fleeced? Yes and no. After I repaired the required components I still had a fair market value into the plane, but the seller definitely was a little sketchy. And the annual he did and his IA signed off on was worthless. I never pursued it because he sold it AS IS - not a stipulation I totally understood until I began having issues.

Flew the plane for two years and just last month had the issue with the exhaust valve. Got the engine apart and discovered that I had been flying on borrowed time from day one. The engine has since been properly repaired, but had I known the full story on it the plane would have been worth substantially less than I paid for it. I'm not going to resintall it either - I'm upgrading to the O-470 conversion. As solid as I think Franklins are when in good running order I am looking forward to a trusty Continental (with performance to spare!).

Like I said, if you want another set of eyes when you pick it up I am more than happy to assist. If it is too far from me there are plenty of other Stinsoneers in this neck of the woods that ould help out too.