Wind management can/should start once the aircraft is untied. We don't want to lift off without any takeoff roll, but that is possible with enough wind. Even though he doesn't have enough relative wind to lift off from the start point, getting the nose light as early as possible is just good wind management. The reward in this contest is obvious, but it is good technique to get the nose light as soon as possible for any takeoff. Little things that don't matter most of the time become huge factors, or the lack thereof, some of the time.

Popping the flaps wouldn't have helped at the start point with insufficient relative wind to get the mains off. They or an elevator pull or both worked with sufficient relative wind. Timing was a factor in either technique. Regardless, he had good timing.

It's been some time - 40 years - since I flew a plane with the third wheel on the front. It looks to me like the pilot is testing the elevator response with short applications while not creating too much induced drag. When it feels like he has enough elevator authority (through control feedback and heaviness) to plant the tail and reach max AOA he pops the flaps and rotates. Good show!

Gary

PA1195 wrote:It's been some time - 40 years - since I flew a plane with the third wheel on the front. It looks to me like the pilot is testing the elevator response with short applications while not creating too much induced drag. When it feels like he has enough elevator authority (through control feedback and heaviness) to plant the tail and reach max AOA he pops the flaps and rotates. Good show!

Gary

Reading the responses then watching the video, I agree with Gary that he seems to be "testing the waters", then when he gets the feel he wants he pulls back and pops the flaps and he's airborne. That pilot is pretty in tune with aircraft.

Dare I suggest a small non-sprung tail wheel or bent metal skid be attached to the rear of front wheel aircraft for this type or operation? Yes they tend to do that when loaded and nobody wants to leave underwear skid marks on takeoff do they?

I'm as the rest here am impressed with any technique that can be taught or learned. Light planes are one thing, but having never driven a sled or 206 I'm amazed at the pilot's ability to assess and adjust to their loading and takeoff limitations.

Gary

-200ft density altitude helps too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Totally irrelevant to the original post. I don't care about the legalities of the contest or the FAA. I'm truly interested in learning more about his technique.

Well, I too am interested in these techniques.

However.

The possibility of heavy mods, some perhaps of questionable legality, is an issue of interest, at least to me. I'd seen the video before and was truly amazed that a 172 could pull that off. I never suspected the possible existence of potentially suspicious mods.

I care because to me it seems a little dishonest, unless openly declared up front.

A totally trusting person might be led into buying a Cessna 172 with aspirations of achieving somewhat similar results. If you were unaware that possibly shady mods had been done then you could practice in your 172 until eternity and still not achieve what was seen in the video.

Maybe other things like over-bored engines for slightly higher displacement, spiked fuel, unapproved props, and other stealthy mods are also common place among the certified planes? I don't want to create a thread drift, so let me say that in any case, that was one impressive performance by plane and pilot. Also, thanks to this thread, some of us may now view the Valdez competition with a slightly different perspective.

YMMV.

Before we blame mods, we need a wind report. In sufficient wind, that takeoff would not be spectacular. What was the performance of other 170s? I think he helped himself by getting the nose light before leaving the start line.

Technique generally makes more difference than mods. And God (wind) is bigger than either.

Denali wrote:
I never suspected the possible existence of potentially suspicious mods.

I care because to me it seems a little dishonest, unless openly declared up front.

Maybe other things like over-bored engines for slightly higher displacement, spiked fuel, unapproved props, and other stealthy mods are also common place among the certified planes?

Also, thanks to this thread, some of us may now view the Valdez competition with a slightly different perspective.

YMMV.

Are NASCAR "stock car" race cars the same as the stock car you buy at the GM dealer? Is the drop-dead-gorgeous movie star actress on the silver screen actually that spectacular looking when you see her at the supermarket?

We're discussing a very well known and closely followed competition. Brand names are built and broken, reputations are made, and there is real money at stake. If Pilot X is shown doing a takeoff and landing in 16 feet, and wins the competition, then Pilot X STOL Bush Pilot School gets more customers. Nothing wrong with it at all.

ANY type of "race prep" or "tune-up" or weight removal effort makes it no longer a stock un-modified airplane, whether it is legal, FAA approved, or otherwise. When I removed the rear seat in my 172, it could be considered "illegal" because an IA did not sign off on a new W&B until the next annual. Do most of the early 145HP 172 owners remove the rear seat to save 30+ pounds? Is that a shady or questionable competition mod?

If you want to talk about things that are suspicious and shady, ask why there are never any windsocks, streamers, wind turbine computer readout of wind speed, etc. in any of the videos that are released. Everything would be a lot less OMG if the video showed that the wind was blowing at half the flying speed of the aircraft. You'd think that they would have a display of the wind speed and density altitude, at a world famous contest about getting the shortest takeoff and landing distances.

There are an awful lot of upgrades, tune-ups, aerodynamic hacks, air seals, slightly re-clocked magnetos, and other stuff out there on "normal" certified airplanes.

I met and talked to the guy and it's just a normal old 172 with the Horton stol kit. Yes not much gas and yes no rear seat or passenger seat but that's about it. He placed third against some nice flying 180 horse 170's. Good technique. Nice guy and lots of practice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was originally going to quip that he must understand that "pitch controls airspeed", but in the discussion of modifications I'm curious:

Why anyone would be running big bush wheels on a nose dragger for this competition?

It's on pavement, they weigh more than the smallest wheels and tires that would do the job and since it's not a tail dragger they clearly aren't serving to increase angle of attack on the ground.

I would imagine (total guess) that the increased weight of those big tires would equal the weight of removing the back seat.

aftCG wrote:I was originally going to quip that he must understand that "pitch controls airspeed", but in the discussion of modifications I'm curious:

Why anyone would be running big bush wheels on a nose dragger for this competition?

It's on pavement, they weigh more than the smallest wheels and tires that would do the job and since it's not a tail dragger they clearly aren't serving to increase angle of attack on the ground.

I would imagine (total guess) that the increased weight of those big tires would equal the weight of removing the back seat.

Actually bigger main wheels on a trike do allow for more AoA at rotation, the tail can be pushed down further before striking the ground.

So single gunman or two on the Kennedy assassination??

Love the conspiracy theories. Classic stuff!! Ben Brown of Kasiloff knows how to fly a plane jane 172. To modify the engine of a 55 or so 172? Really? Pull the starter? really??? I did not notice the Nitrous Oxide tank but I bet it was there. Maybe he was pumping it in with the elevator! That's it!!!Excuse me sir congratulations on your win! You get a prize worth about $1,000 and bragging rights, now we would like to tear down your engine for inspection.... I bet he went to his race trailer to get the performance prop FOR HIS 172!!! If Ben had the bucks or the interest for that I bet he would......buy a 180! If you let someone poke around enough NONE of our planes are legal and that is just how they want it. They have everyone in fear of putting a gopro or even a sticker on their plane. Welcome to the land of the free! We may be a little more daring in Alaska but not too much. We do use the honor system and yes it is up to the contestants to be legal. We stipulate 30 minute reserve of fuel but no we don't dip the tanks. Sorry OP, these things just kill me. You have a good question about the technique, that is what we hope people use this event for, perhaps learn a thing or two they can use in their flying. Ben is a superb guy, I bet he would be happy to discus, I could send you his e-mail if you like. He won last year, beating Shawn Holley and his Cessna 170B who had won the 4 previous years.

There is a wind sock right behind the photographers, come on up and you can see it, the contestants can too. We could put one up for this camera angle but generally you don't put them in the apron. At least not at this airport. The wind was a steady 15kts from 270 most of the day and dropped a little for Frank. The runway is 24. Temp was 55 and yes Valdez is sea level. The wind is also a very steady sea breeze so that makes it pretty ideal to compete in. If we had a grass runway then it would be ideal but you can't have it all.

We don't pretend this is real world, just a set of controlled variables to see how everyone does flying their plane. Most of the mods are taking out the took kit and the seats. It is a great demonstration of pilot ability, and thanks to all who competed! It was a great turn out this year. If you have not made it be sure to keep us on the list. Like most all events in flying the best part is meeting and visiting with everyone.

jprax wrote:So single gunman or two on the Kennedy assassination??

Love the conspiracy theories. Classic stuff!! Ben Brown of Kasiloff knows how to fly a plane jane 172. To modify the engine of a 55 or so 172? Really? Pull the starter? really??? I did not notice the Nitrous Oxide tank but I bet it was there. Maybe he was pumping it in with the elevator! That's it!!!Excuse me sir congratulations on your win! You get a prize worth about $1,000 and bragging rights, now we would like to tear down your engine for inspection.... I bet he went to his race trailer to get the performance prop FOR HIS 172!!! If Ben had the bucks or the interest for that I bet he would......buy a 180! If you let someone poke around enough NONE of our planes are legal and that is just how they want it. They have everyone in fear of putting a gopro or even a sticker on their plane. Welcome to the land of the free! We may be a little more daring in Alaska but not too much. We do use the honor system and yes it is up to the contestants to be legal. We stipulate 30 minute reserve of fuel but no we don't dip the tanks. Sorry OP, these things just kill me. You have a good question about the technique, that is what we hope people use this event for, perhaps learn a thing or two they can use in their flying. Ben is a superb guy, I bet he would be happy to discus, I could send you his e-mail if you like. He won last year, beating Shawn Holley and his Cessna 170B who had won the 4 previous years.

There is a wind sock right behind the photographers, come on up and you can see it, the contestants can too. We could put one up for this camera angle but generally you don't put them in the apron. At least not at this airport. The wind was a steady 15kts from 270 most of the day and dropped a little for Frank. The runway is 24. Temp was 55 and yes Valdez is sea level. The wind is also a very steady sea breeze so that makes it pretty ideal to compete in. If we had a grass runway then it would be ideal but you can't have it all.

We don't pretend this is real world, just a set of controlled variables to see how everyone does flying their plane. Most of the mods are taking out the took kit and the seats. It is a great demonstration of pilot ability, and thanks to all who competed! It was a great turn out this year. If you have not made it be sure to keep us on the list. Like most all events in flying the best part is meeting and visiting with everyone.

I love it. I get exactly what you are saying and appreciate the sarcasm. I would love to have his email and be able to talk to him about his technique and his plane. You can pm it to me or send me an email at [email protected]. Thanks for your reply!

http://www.valdezflyin.com/wp-content/u ... -Rules.pdf

Valdez is a STOL contest, not a ramp check or annual inspection.
The rules are about keeping it safe.
They explain aircraft classifications (light touring, etc),
they don't say an airplane has to be bone stock.
About the closest they come is "Experimental (non-certified) aircraft will only be allowed in the Light Sport Class or in the Experimental Bush Class."

Anyone who buys a 172 (or whatever) based on what he saw one do at Valdez deserves whatever he gets- good or bad.
"Truth in advertising" rules are not applicable.

hotrod180 wrote:http://www.valdezflyin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-Valdez-Fly-In-Rules.pdf

Valdez is a STOL contest, not a ramp check or annual inspection.

.

+1

jprax wrote:So single gunman or two on the Kennedy assassination??

I'm guessing more than two. You ever see one bullet do a full Aresti aerobatic routine and hit two people from different directions? You ever see an autopsy and a body just disappear when nobody had anything to hide?

jprax wrote: To modify the engine of a 55 or so 172? Really? Pull the starter? really???

I guess you've never heard some of the guys here or on the Super Cub forum talking about removing weight. Just from what I've read and heard over a few short years, they all scream that real bush pilots are removing every ounce possible all the time. Maybe one of the more highly experienced bush pilot types here in BCP can correct me... has something changed recently where bush pilots and STOL operators are not serious about taking weight out of the airplane any more? I could swear that I've seen a whole lot of discussions on these forums about how the serious pilots are all serious about weight.

If one guy is so serious about weight removal for a STOL contest, that he left three pounds of fabric off of the fuselage of his Cub... in f***ing ice cold Alaska no less, then yes I would have to say that temporarily removing 75 pounds of starter, battery, generator, etc. is not a ridiculous thing for them to consider.

jprax wrote: Ben is a superb guy, .

That makes his performance all the more impressive. A superb pilot and a superb guy. Score one for the old school

jprax wrote:There is a wind sock right behind the photographers,

Precisely. What good does it do there, for the thousands of people who watch the videos?

jprax wrote: We could put one up for this camera angle but generally you don't put them in the apron. At least not at this airport.

If you are having the most bad-ass, most recognized, most hotly contested STOL competition in the whole world, where momentary and/or steady headwinds are a huge factor in the achieved performance of the competitors.... don't you think that it would be useful (for all of the people around the world who see this on the internet) if there was a windsock, or a flag, visible in the camera's field of view? Nobody was smart enough to think about that?

I'm not telling you to re-design the apron, ramp, or runway at Valdez. I'm not remotely telling you how to run your contest, or what types of airplane modifications are legal or approved. I'm not even telling you that Oswald and Jack Ruby had lunch on the Grassy Knoll with Castro and Kruschev on November 21.

I'm telling you that the simple (even temporary) placement of a windsock in the view of the !($*% camera is something that just makes sense and would be important to tens of thousands of people who see these videos. The windsock (even a handkerchief on the end of a fishing pole) can be 100 feet on the other side of the runway, behind the touchdown target, so it doesn't block anyone's view or affect the aircraft.

With sincere respect and no insult intended...please correct me if I'm wrong... is there any reason that something so obvious to an average video spectator hasn't been thought of and put into place?

EZFlap
I bet if you ask Joe he would be more than happy to let you fly up and set up the camera and stand out in the wind/rain for 6 hours to make sure you had windsock in all the shots. Better yet you could edit the video to show the recorded wind speed at time of take off. Now I have seen it blow 15-20 from both ends at the same time so who knows what it really is.
Before anyone casts dispersions on the pilots/planes/or airshow in general I would suggest they get off the computer and do a better job themselves or sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show.
DENNY

DENNY wrote:...sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show.
DENNY

Well said brother.

+ 1

DENNY wrote:EZFlap
I bet if you ask Joe he would be more than happy to let you fly up and set up the camera and stand out in the wind/rain for 6 hours to make sure you had windsock in all the shots. Better yet you could edit the video to show the recorded wind speed at time of take off. Now I have seen it blow 15-20 from both ends at the same time so who knows what it really is.
Before anyone casts dispersions on the pilots/planes/or airshow in general I would suggest they get off the computer and do a better job themselves or sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show.
DENNY

Thank you.