Zzz wrote:

robertc wrote:As far as T182T and Blown56 are concerned, they should be invited to Johnson Creek for some dinner bell ringing activities.

Really? Not cool. This is an emotional topic, and everyone should make a greater effort than normal to tread lightly and post with empathy and professionalism.

ShysDad has done a good job of that despite receiving some crisp education in this thread. Don't ruin the discussion with petty insults, name calling, or threats. That goes for all.

OK-dumb on my part-Ive talked to Blown-he's a good guy and he accepted my apology.

We don't have TFR's for search operations in Alaska that I am aware of. CAP knows to stay in the hangar unless the weather is perfect and the Air National Guard, Coast Guard, AK Troopers and the locals come and find your ass. Response times are nearly immediate and it usually ain't long before something gets spotted.

My ELT...yes the 121.5 kind...went off in our 180 while sitting in the yard one evening (internal malfunction and went hot without anyone's knowing it. Switch was not activated). The Coast Guard, based in Sitka 90 miles away, showed up within a couple of hours. They were not upset, in fact they were happy no one was hanging in a tree and offered no tongue lashing either. They smiled, said have a nice evening, and went home.

Contact your Representatives and Senators. Have them go talk to guys like Zenpilot. The solution isn't that difficult.

Hope you and your family are doin' OK. We'll be praying for you.

I think I will relate an incident that I was involved in just to put the information out there.

Several years ago my best friend met a young man who needed to go from Haines to Gustavus for his job, he couldn't afford commercial (I guess) and my buddy just loved to fly.

They left Haines, had to go to Juneau for fuel then intended to go to Gustavus. About thirty five or forty miles south they ran into a spring snow squall. There were five or six planes circling south of this storm and the same north of it. Some had tried the East side and some the West side, some high and some low, they were all just sort of waiting for the squall to break up.
Buddy went low to check, got to far in and disappeared forever.

The search started within the hour, first by phone checking possible landing sites, did he go home, did he find a hole and climb out, did he whatever.

Basically within a very short time nearly everyone knew he was down and where he HAD to be within just a few miles. He had radio and ELT (121.5 before the new ones)

The CAP became involved, the local commercial outfits donated planes and pilots, friends and strangers searched, hippies and loggers along with about a hundred boy scouts hiked the brush.

There is basically one route from Haines to Juneau, Lynn Canal. The mountains on each side are 7 to 8 thousand feet high and there are only a few routes where deviation is possible.

The CAP was very good, they coordinated the effort of everyone in the air, personal, private, commercial and CAP. When I said I had an idea where he might have gone they gave me that location along with suggestions on how to most effectively search.

To this day my friend, his passenger, and his plane remain missing. Flight plan, ELT, PLB, 121, 409, govt, oversight, flight following or whatever: NONE OF THIS WAS THE PROBLEM.

The problem was THE PILOT MADE A DECISION TO PUSH THE CONDITIONS AND IT KILLED HIM.

I will not put my faith in gadgets, I will not put my faith in the government, I will not put my faith in rules and regulations.

I will put my faith in my friends, my family and myself. Whatever happens on my plane is my fault, PERIOD.

I still don't have any great words of wisdom or condolence for you except to again say I am sorry.

Shane

ShysDad wrote:
I did everything I could to get the national guard out there, it took nearly 6 days for this to happen.

I was told by CAP to not go and look for her, I was told if I walked into one of their search grids they would pull assets out.

If I hired a private plane they would pull their assets. They were allowing other pilots to help but only on a very strict limited basis.

There were at least 7 planes on the ground waiting to be allowed to help. At one point the CAP had a search grid of nearly 2400 square miles and had a plan been filed the search area would have been much much smaller.

At one point CAP even took the word of a psychic and investigated his premonition.

The statements posted above perfectly illustrate the reason, and ultimate responsibility for this tragedy.

Airplanes were not the problem. Lack of a flight plan was not the problem. Lack of resources was not the problem. Lack of a 406 ELT was not the problem. All these things were of course contributing factors to some degree, but we cannot let any of these ancillary or secondary factors be pushed down everyone's throat as a scapegoat.

If I were the CAP's lawyer, I would be working overtime to put these secondary factors front and center to misdirect the public's attention away from the actions and policies of the CAP. This is "crisis management 101". I would be doing anything and everything to direct the public's attention AWAY from the fact that CAP took deliberate, decisive actions that reduced the number of vehicles and people who were out there searching for survivors while there still might have been time.

Blaming this tragedy on the lack of a flight plan is absolute, utter nonsense that will sooner or later cost someone else the loss of a loved one. That is not what caused the loss of your daughter, sir. Although I don't know all the facts from both sides, it sure looks like ego, political maneuvering, ass-covering, budget concerns, and jockeying for position and public perception are the larger contributors to this loss.

We had one of the local Los Angeles Sheriff's SAR officers speak at our EAA chapter meeting. He laughed at all the noise about 406 ELT's... he said that after all the satellites and all the government rules and all the BS, if you crashed anywhere in LA County HE was the guy with boots on the ground that would be coming up the mountain to look for you, and HE only had a 121.5 direction finder that did not read the 406 signal.

And if I were the CAP's lawyer and PR firm, I'd be desperately scrambling for any defensible position for their policies and practices. I'm sorry to be repetitive, but if you want to change what went wrong here, don't let anyone steer you towards "fixing" the details and keep you away from the big "elephant in the room".

If I were your lawyer, I'd be making sure that everyone on this planet understood that on one hand the CAP offered to let a $#(#*% psychic help them find your daughter, but on the other hand they threatened the father and a group of citizens to stay away, and quite possibly because of this a child's life was lost. I'm sorry, but in this day and age of media coverage being the primary factor in the decisions made by government, you have to give them an upside to do the right thing, and a very painful downside for doing the wrong thing. Once upon a time this ass-covering did not dominate every word and action by elected officials, but that time has come and gone.

One more thing, take a good close look at the motives and risk/reward of the position of every party in this situation. Most of the people on this discussion group have a personal stake in keeping government regulations within reason, and protecting our ability to fly without being regulated to death. But most of us have kids or family we would certainly want to keep safe at all costs, and it is our ass that is at risk every single time we fly.

The government bureaucrats have a life-or-death stake in making themselves LOOK like they are doing their job and acting for public safety, and taking the obvious and defensible path to prevent them from looking like they are not doing their job. The CAP has a sink-or-swim stake in keeping their budget and their public perception as the good guy, and making sure they cannot get sued.

A government bureaucrat that takes a public stand for 406 gadgets, or flight plans, has a defensible position to say they were doing something... regardless of whether that something was truly the right thing. A CAP general that makes a case for them being the only qualified people to search for downed airplanes... is making a case for justifying their budget and justifying their position of authority. If the CAP admits that they are only one part of a search, and that civilian airplanes would double or triple their effectiveness... they have just minimized the importance of the CAP.

The responsibility for this tragedy is still solely and squarely with the PIC. The accident was avoidable and preventable with good decision making - and that guy is dead so he cannot be held responsible. Now the CAP may have lost a big opportunity to save the day by being a confederacy of dunces - and they surely deserve to be disbanded or reorganized if what is being reported is true.

I would personally like to see an "end-around" the CAP. They seem to be irrelevant - and are only involved for lack of a better and more qualified organization. I would suggest you contact these folks - and talk to them about organizing pilots in their jurisdiction for air searches. They know how to manage the callouts, train volunteers, and work with the Guards and law enforcement jurisdiction - and these people don't have to wear uniforms and salute anybody to contribute.

http://www.mra.org/

And if they don't want any part of this - start a grass roots movement to organize a replacement for the CAP. This is how the MRA got started. If there's a void - lets fill it. It will be a long and arduous process - but I support it. I know many of us who would volunteer and train but want _no_ part of the CAP.

Let 'em pull their assets out. Tell 'em to kiss your asset.

Seems to me that standard protocol for searches is to start at the last known location and work from there - grid search the cone. You don't go out to the end of the possible range unless you have the resources to cover it all. Which they may have had if they weren't such a "closed society."

"We have long understood that in wilderness SAR there has been a tendency to under-deploy. Due to the
bold work of some agencies, such as the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Office, the Phoenix Fire 6
Department, Fairfax County Fire in Virginia, the Las Vegas Metro Police SAR unit, and sadly, due to
increasing lawsuits in the area of SAR, the trend has changed positively to deploying a fully equipped and
trained SAR unit (whether paid and/or unpaid matters not) to incidents more quickly."

http://www.mra.org/images/stories/docs/Triageanddispatch.pdf

I personally have been called out to look for needles in haystacks. I know the folks I worked with were humble and dedicated and left their jobs and families to go do this work - because by God if it was my child I would want heaven and earth moved to try and get to them. There is research and conferences on these techniques and it sounds like there needs to be more.

ADM prevents tragedy, but gadgets - greatly increase your chances of being found when things go south - it happens.

Every public service "job" I've ever had came with implied responsibility for those I was serving. This is in addition to the generally accepted notion of care for your fellow man.
If I take someone for a ride in the truck (car) and something happens, that passenger has an idea of what to do or not to do.
If I take that person for a ride in my plane & something happens, that passenger has NO idea what to do unless pre-briefed.
If I'm flying alone I know the risks of not having a proper ELT, PLB, tracking device, sat. phone, etc. My choice.
If flying a passenger their well being is in my hands so these risks need to be mitigated. No question. My responsibility.
Pass. briefing: Not likely, but if something happens here is this & that, & this is how to use it. Cavalry will come.

shorton wrote:...........As a father, nearly the worst pain I have had was when one of my kids got hurt and I couldn't find someone to blame for it. I hope you can find some peace of mind.

No offense, but I think this is at least partially the case here. Aviation (like many other activities) can be unforgiving when something goes wrong. My heart goes out to Shysdad for the loss of his daughter. We've seen a few posts of this nature before on this site-- I'm sure there is always an overwhelming desire for the family left behind to understand what went wrong, as well as to blame someone/something for it. Unfortunately, airplanes crash-- sometimes it's pilot error, sometimes equipment malfunction, sometimes it's just that shit happens. (forgive me if I sound callous, that is not my intention)
It sounds to me like the search in this case (and many others) could have been conducted a lot more efficiently, but as someone related, sometimes all the beacons ELT's & searchers in the world just don't get the job done in time, or even at all. It sounds to me like lobbying for better SAR policies and protocols would do more to improve future searches than would crusading for more and better ELT's & beacons.

A flight plan is only there to #1 initiate a search, #2 convey to S&R where the flight left from and the intended route. If no one has any idea that you are going to fly and where you are going it would be prudent to let someone know whether its flight service, or a relative or friend! I fly mostly in Alaska. Flight service here is great to deal with. I keep a master flight plan on file and use a Spot. Flight plan takes a couple of seconds to do and I use it for everey flight. Down in the lower 48 it's a different story. Pain in the ass. Say you want to go from Moab to Salt lake. You will spend 20 minutes with a briefer telling you all about the weather that's 400-500 miles away from your intended route. and how a trough of low pressure in the pacific ocean is bringing moisure and unstability to the region. Runway marking in Vernal or wherever is nonstandard, TFR's for denver and on and on. Then after that you say I would like to file VFR. then the briefer tells you that vfr is not recommended because of mountain obscuration in the area. You say well I will go ahead and take a look to see if it is safe to transition over the mountains. The briefer reminds you of the airmet for mountain obscuration. You then ask the briefer where he is located. The briefer tells you he is in Georgia or some other damn place a thousand miles away. So then you say I would still like to file VFR. Finally he takes the flight plan tells you pilot reports are appreciated and you get off the phone. Now you fire up the plane and head out. There is an overcast layer at about 12,500 across the mountains with a few clouds scattered here and there between 8-10 thousand feet. no big deal!!! This has happened to me more than a few times since lockheed martin took over the flight service stations. I get to where I don't even like to call!!
So lets go with this scenario: if I needed to turn off course to avoid some weather could be anywhere from 5 to 25 miles conservatively. Getting flight service on the radio sometimes through that rout is spotty at best depending on altitude. CNY to SLC is about 159 nautical miles. If I only went off course 5 miles from center line and crashed somewhere then there would only be 795 sq nautical miles that the crash could be located on each side of the centerline for a total of 1590 square miles. Lets say i needed to go 25 off course. That means 3975 square on each side of centerline for a total of 7950 square miles. It get huge really quickly as you can see. Bottom line. If S&R was notified and started looking if you were late your chances are fairly slim at best. Unless there is someone with the plane who is able to either Talk on the radio if it's still operative, Call on a sat phone or cell phone etc. I think a 406 ELT is definitely a good idea but, depending on the crash it may or may not be in working condition. You say you are looking for pilot input. It seems like an overwhelming percentage of the pilots here are against "Government requirements". Hopefully you can accept that. I also don't want to see a government mandate. I do know that you are wanting to help and "saving just one" seems like a noble cause. But statistically speaking there are waaaay more kids in car crashes and from child abuse every year than airplane crashes. It seems like you could save more kids by getting the government to crack down on "Meth Head" parents driving their kids around or abusing them than trying to make more flight regulations for pilots who are always lookig on their own for ways to be safer. If you just look through all the past threads on this website you will find all kinds of discussions on ways to become safer without government intrusion. This is just the pilots here. The vast majority of general aviation pilots in the USA are also looking for ways to do things safer. Which includes honing their skills which to me is probably the best safeguard. If the government requires all kinds of electronic devices for tracking, etc then guess what. That aircraft owner having to spend thousands of dollars to comply will not be able to practice as much. There are some with enough money that it is not a problem to buy new stuff but there are also alot of regular guy types that it wouldhurt.

Wow, can't believe I read through all 7 pages in one sitting but this is a pressing topic given the type of flying we do.

I have some experience flying SAR and MEDEVAC in the Navy but am not an expert on the subject at all. I started training for SAR operations around the time the 406 beacons were coming out. I was surprised at all of the fuse that was happening about the 406 since the aircraft I was flying actually had no means of homing in on a 406 signal, and it was, and still is one of the newer aircraft in the Navy's inventory. We had the option of punching in 121.5 or 243 and linking a navaid to the signal which would provide us with a direct path to the survivor, but a 406 only transmitter wouldn't be useful at all. It seemed the switch to 406 was more of an FCC inspired move than anything SAR related. When stateside the handheld radios in our flight vests were OK but the radios we carried in theater were closer to the PLBs that many of us carry and more useful for that reason. I'm not convinced that 406 is better than the old 121.5/243. As I recall the reason for the switch was to avoid false signals but wouldn't that switch just move the problem to a different frequency?

As for mandating flight plans. Honestly, if they were a required step for a flight how many of us would simply file for a "local" flight for 6 hours and rely on other means for SAR notification? Most of the time I pick my destination when airborne because I encounter weather or get hungry and remember that there is a great diner next to a certain airport. The only time I've filled was for checkrides, border crossings, or IFR.

Overland SAR isn't beyond the capability of most civilian pilots. The concern comes from having pilots of unknown training/background/ability participating in a search. For example lets say a pilot and observer were assigned an area to search. The pilot is the type of guy that barely maintains his currency by flying every 90 days and the observer has never been in an airplane before but grabs a set of binoculars and jumps in the right seat. How well was that area searched and what is the liability of having a minimally qualified crew like that working a rescue? Does that save time or does it waste time because another aircraft is going to have to go over the area again? The standardized background of military pilots takes a lot of the ambiguity out when it comes to working together in a mission like this. I know that when I hear an Army/Air Force/Marine/Coastie/Navy aircraft on the radio participating in a SAR that they are professionals, even though I do give AF guys a lot of crap . From my limited interactions I have no idea what to expect with CAP, so they didn't make the previous list.

With that said, I'd say the majority of the pilots on this forum are capable of helping out during a SAR. If you ever see a frantic post by my wife on here I'm expecting you guys to help before a TFR gets thrown up over me.

I've never dealt with CAP and I really know nothing about them other than when Sparky Emerson went down. There seemed to be a massive mobilization on this site of volunteers getting ready to go and help. Then the word came that they didn't want us there. I don't think there is anyone among us that wouldn't stop whatever they were doing to help find a downed plane.

Apparently CAP has never seen Spanish Fork Airport on a sunny day after a week of rain. Every student in the valley is flying and it seems to work out there. If they just co ordinated things and everyone kept separation, you could get a lot more eyes and radios up there. Especially if you're searching a 30+ mile long course. Hard to say why people turn down free resources when it's a matter of life and death.

In my situation, a flight plan would be useless most of the time. I am recreationally flying and 90% of the time I have no idea where I'll end up. Not sure if anyone has explained to Mark how the tracking feature works on SPOT. It sends your location automatically and leaves a "trail" that anyone you want can see on the internet. Lots of guys here have links to their trips on their posts. That by far would be the best way to locate someone who is missing. It shows exactly where you were last time it broadcast your position. It might not be as fast as the 911 feature but if you were overdue, they would know right where to start looking. Plus, your last position is there even if you aren't able to send a message.

Mark, few of us can understand what you have been through and I am so sorry for your loss. I applaud your efforts to try to make sure this doesn't happen again. I think you will do more good writing the article that was mentioned earlier. I think that will make a lot more difference than dealing with an agency that doesn't see their protocol as being a problem. God bless you and your family.

Swindler wrote:As I recall the reason for the switch was to avoid false signals but wouldn't that switch just move the problem to a different frequency?

It's true that 406 ELT have a slightly lower false signal rate due to technology improvements, but that wasn't the primary reason. The primary reason is that by switching bands they can greatly increase the accuracy of the signal. Even without GPS, the 406 specification is setup to provide doppler shift locations (think GPS in reverse) that are far more accurate than the old 121.5 specification. And if you add to that a GPS fix being broadcast with the beacon then potential the search area is narrowed to a few hundred feet.

Swindler wrote:Overland SAR isn't beyond the capability of most civilian pilots. The concern comes from having pilots of unknown training/background/ability participating in a search. For example lets say a pilot and observer were assigned an area to search. The pilot is the type of guy that barely maintains his currency by flying every 90 days and the observer has never been in an airplane before but grabs a set of binoculars and jumps in the right seat. How well was that area searched and what is the liability of having a minimally qualified crew like that working a rescue? Does that save time or does it waste time because another aircraft is going to have to go over the area again? The standardized background of military pilots takes a lot of the ambiguity out when it comes to working together in a mission like this.

This situation is proving (if what is alleged is proven true) that the CAP is no better than untrained civilians or maybe worse. I have worked in volunteer search organizations - with many persons of no military training who can and will conduct themselves with very high degrees of professionalism. Frankly, this should concern none of us. SAR coordinators devise training regiments that are prescribed for readiness standards, including recurring training to address these issues or they will not deploy them.

Again, many would volunteer and train and meet standards set forth - but want no part of a para-military organization. You cannot expect an untrained pilot or observer to participate of course. But the lack of a current organization and training regiment should not justify keeping things as is. These are all solvable problems with prior precedence and analogous organizations that can be leveraged.

Mark, I am sorry for your tremendous loss and I admire your ability to carry out this conversation. I am a physician and more specifically an anesthesiologist and I would like to relate a story about safety regulation. Medicare a couple years back decided to institute safety and quality measures to improve outcomes in the perioperative period. One was to require the administration of beta blockers to patients at risk for periop heart attack. This decision was based on research that showed that these BP lowering drugs could do this. The program started and within 3-6 months it was halted because we discovered a dramatic increase in the stroke rate perioperatively due to low blood pressures. Another program that was insituted was tight periop blood sugar control through aggresive use of insulin in an attempt to decrease infections associated with high blood sugars. Once again this program was stopped due to patients being injured by extremely low blood sugars caused by this program. Currently there is a program for the timely administration of antibiotics perioperatively to prevent surgical infections. Recent studies show that this has done nothing to lower the infection rate but because nobody is being injured we continue on so everyone can feel good that they are doing all they can to prevent infections. Never mind the millions of dollars that are being wasted that could actually be used to help someone. Three wheel ATVs were outlawed because they were so unstable and dangerous resulting in numerous injuries. Now 4 wheelers probably result in more injuries because they are so stable people feel they can race across the prarie at 50mph. Wasting money on ineffective legislation that makes people feel good is a double wammy. It never acheives the intended goal and wastes money that could be used effectively. Steve

Swindler wrote:Wow, can't believe I read through all 7 pages in one sitting but this is a pressing topic given the type of flying we do.

I have some experience flying SAR and MEDEVAC in the Navy but am not an expert on the subject at all. I started training for SAR operations around the time the 406 beacons were coming out. I was surprised at all of the fuse that was happening about the 406 since the aircraft I was flying actually had no means of homing in on a 406 signal, and it was, and still is one of the newer aircraft in the Navy's inventory. We had the option of punching in 121.5 or 243 and linking a navaid to the signal which would provide us with a direct path to the survivor, but a 406 only transmitter wouldn't be useful at all. It seemed the switch to 406 was more of an FCC inspired move than anything SAR related. When stateside the handheld radios in our flight vests were OK but the radios we carried in theater were closer to the PLBs that many of us carry and more useful for that reason. I'm not convinced that 406 is better than the old 121.5/243. As I recall the reason for the switch was to avoid false signals but wouldn't that switch just move the problem to a different frequency?

You can't DF the 406 frequency reliably because its a burst transmission and only transmitted every 50 seconds. I suppose it's possible to develop a DF receiver that could DF but what would be the point, since the vast majority of the 406 beacons also transmit on 121.5 specifically so that they CAN be DF'd by conventional equipment.

Further, the 406 beacons provide more precise Doppler location via satellite, and even more precise location information if they are GPS equipped as well.

Finally, the number of false alarms has drastically decreased since adoption of the 406 because the 406 signal contains a coded identifier for the beacon. If my beacon activates, RCC knows immediately who to call, and if I answer, they tell me to turn off my ELTON. Search over. Back when satellites were monitoring 121.5 RCC had to task SOMEONE on the ground to go FIND that ELT that was parked in a hangar or ramp, then try to find the owner to get them to turn it off.

MTV

This has been a good read for me.

I ordered a PLB yesterday should be here friday.

I think those that pointed out we owe our passengers all the safety we can are right, at least for me.

On amazon a well rated PBL was only $284 including shipping seemed like a fair price. I already have a spot but i think the redundancy is worth it and from what i read the PBL seems a little more reliably.

Thanks for getting me thinking

EZFlap wrote:

ShysDad wrote:We had one of the local Los Angeles Sheriff's SAR officers speak at our EAA chapter meeting. He laughed at all the noise about 406 ELT's... he said that after all the satellites and all the government rules and all the BS, if you crashed anywhere in LA County HE was the guy with boots on the ground that would be coming up the mountain to look for you, and HE only had a 121.5 direction finder that did not read the 406 signal.

Which simply emphasizes the vast amount of mis-information there is posted here and amongst many in both the aviation world and some folks who CLAIM to be in the SAR business about the 406 ELTs.

With only ONE exception (Emerging Lifesaving Technologies unit), ALL the 406 ELTs also transmit on 121.5 mHz. Near as I can tell, NONE of the commercially available Personal Locator Beacons transmits on 121.5.

So, if your county mountie is in fact the guy coming up the hill to look for a plane wreck, he can still locate MOST of the 406 ELTs with D/F.

Not so PLBs, however.

Take that into consideration in your purchasing, folks.

MTV

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"Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal."

-- Ernest K. Gann, ‘Fate is the Hunter.’