WWhunter, I don't know about you but I find that kind of incident stays with me forever. Every once in a while I do see an individual like that grow up and come to regret acting in that manner but that sure does not help all the people he/she came into contact with when they were so immature. Sorry you had to experience it.

Superdave,
If you are fairly certain that you were complying with all the rules you needed to comply with during both ramp checks, and you feel that the checks were of an unreasonable length or otherwise unprofessional, I'd write a formal complaint.

Most people in governmental enforcement positions are fairly accountable to the public. A formal complaint is, at the least, a big pain in the ass for both them and their supervisors. It also begins a record of accountability...something handy in the event you get cited later on and want to fight it.

Of course, it's pretty important that you have all your ducks in a row...if you were in violation of some regulation and he let you go with a warning, you'll just look like an angry jerk or hot-headed trouble maker who really needs a citation to bring the point home.

It might be worth contacting the AOPA and seeing if they can shed some light on it. Maybe it's not worth it, but it sounds like you are already on his radar, so maybe it is.

Good luck.

Hammer wrote:Of course, it's pretty important that you have all your ducks in a row...if you were in violation of some regulation and he let you go with a warning, you'll just look like an angry jerk or hot-headed trouble maker who really needs a citation to bring the point home. Good luck.

Tough call...

Sometimes it's best to just do what the Old Gunny taught you. Stay invisible. There's always someone else close by to be the next target.

Gump

Hell, anybody can fly in a MOA anytime you want to. Maybe you mean restricted area? Anyway he was pissed because he didn't get to make his big bust, and maybe, hopefully he will get some crap for wasting jet time. And yeah, he was going to throw you to the wolves if he could. It's called shifting blame.

This one's a little different too: about 4 years ago, I called the FAA to have them come out to Austin, NV so that I could get a banner tow waiver. They showed up, and asked for all my paperwork on my Waco that I was going to use for the banner tows. I gave them everything, and while they were looking at the logs, owners manual etc. they told me to go ahead and demonstrate a banner tow. I did, and everything went just right until I landed, and one of the two FAA guys came over and said that I was illegal on that flight because I didn't have my Owners manual, registration, airworthiness etc. in the plane when I took off. I kinda laughed, cause I thought he was kidding, but no, he was dead serious.... Oh, well, I got the waiver and they went home....

There was a time or two, OK... Maybe three. When I would work my way in to a village in absolutely shit weather. Indefinite ceiling, 1/8th mile, and howling wind kind of shitty weather. And of course as soon as I taxied onto the ramp, who would be standing there, but Mr. Fed from FAI or ANC, with this look on the face like, "How in the hell did you get that airplane into here?"

First few times it happened I thought I was a goner, but then I wised up. Fed was there route checking guys, and for whatever reason had hopped off his arrival flight, and was waiting for the next plane out. With the weather down, he may have been there for quite a long time. And for those of you who have never been in an isolated Eskimo village, five minutes can be quite a long time.

I'd unload my mail, and Fed would walk up. If it was an old guy who knew me, it was a non-event. We'd climb in the airplane, I made the dog ride in back, and we flew home in the shit. Those guys knew the situation and the realities of life up there, and they just wanted to get home by dinner time as bad as I did. New Fed, different story.

The stock speech was, "If you're looking to write me up because of busting weather minimums, we're gonna sit here until it's severe VFR before I fire up this airplane to go home, and that might be in three days. I got so and so's house to go to, and I don't give a shit. I can sit there and watch TV and drink Pepsi's... You can wait out in my airplane with Hoser if you want, and use the engine blanket for a sleeping bag. Or, you can be an off the record passenger, sit there and shut up, and thank me for a nice ride when we get back to Kotzebue. Your choice."

I never had a Fed refuse a ride out.

Gump

a64pilot,

My incident happened quite a few years ago, but is still fresh in my mind. He was being a dumba$$. Tried to tell me it was illegal for me to fly through a restricted area (I was based in a restricted area basically) and also through the MOA. I tried telling him the same as what you are saying but he had his panties in a wad that day. Yep, hope he got he butt chewed over it in the end. I'm ex-Air Force and my wife is still active duty Army so I know what you mean by "shifting the blame"....didn't work on me though.

Heck my plane sat right beside the hangar that housed the Predator and Hunter UAV's at the time. You should have seen those guys give me an evil eye one day when I showed up to fly and happened to see their (then semi-secret) plane. Gave me the third degree. Not my fault they had the hangar door open.LOL

Gump,

It sure is funny how they change their tune when it affects them isn't it?

WWhunter wrote:Gump,

It sure is funny how they change their tune when it affects them isn't it?

Well... Like I said before, the vast majority of the FAA inspectors I dealt with were good guys, and I enjoyed working with them. Especially the PMI's. I wanted someone keeping an eye on maintenance policies and procedures because that kept me safe. When company money gets tight, one of the first things to suffer is fixing or upgrading equipment. I was always more concerned with my own hide than the bottom line financially.

There were, and still are, jerks out there, but they didn't seem to stick around long. And this was up north. Things are still "different" up there, and at the dirt level where I lived and played, folks were pretty laid back...

As I'm finding out down here in the real world, people are wound up a whole lot tighter and don't seem to play well together. Probably a good thing I'm hiding out here in the desert.

Gump

Hi All, some thoughts on being ramped. The FAA people are like everybody everywhere The good , bad and ugly. I've been ramped several times in jets and most of the time the guy is filling in the boxes to keep his job, as we all would. The one's that are talked about and stand out are really few. That being said remember they aren't your friend don't confess to anything! Also check their cred's to see if the guy/gal is a pilot or mechanic- they usually won't say.
One story: A buddy of mine was ramped by a young girl, who after checking the log book on the DC9, very authoritatively said looks OK now show me where your annual is signed off and I'll let you go! (annual's aren't done on 121 A/C) My friend replied "little girl pack up your stuff and get off my airplane and go tell your boss what you just ask for, I have no more time for you" She did just that.

New to the flying world. So what exactly dose a ramp check involve?

I'm a new pilot, so I have not been ramp checked yet. I have dealed with other government officials in another transportation sector being that I'm a transportation specialist (ok, I'm a truck driver). I have found that if you present yourself as a professional clean cut person that has all of your paper work in order, you will have a much smoother and worry free inspection. However, if you do come across someone being very irate and unprofessional, I have found the best way to handle the situation is to stay calm and watch your own language. Let them do all the cusing. Then politely ask for there name, employee number, and supervisors name and telephone number. That will usually get an apology from most people. Just a short story while I'm at it (don't mean to get off the subject a little). I stopped at a travel plaza that had an RV dump on the Ohio turnpike one summer to dump the holding tank for the bathroom in my trailer (semi trailer). Well, half way through the dumping process, this gentleman came running around my truck asking me"what the hell are you doing?". I calmly said that "I'm dumping my holding tank into the RV dump". He explained that it was to be used by "RV's Only". I explained to him that there where no sign's that siad so. But he came unglued anyway. Called me everyname in the book. Every cuse word he can think of. When he was done, I asked him if he had something against truck drivers, and he went on further. Anyway, I kept my cool, wrote down some notes, even pulled around to the fuel ilsand and ended up purchasing about $450.00 of fuel from the guy. After signing the credit card slip, I kindly ask for his name, employee ID, surporvisors name and #, he was dead silent! I had to get the information from another employee that believe it or not, that other employee didn't have a kind word to say about the guy that chewed my butt out. I called the surporvisor later that day and was not surprised to hear that the guy was on the bubble to begin with. I'm sure he was looking for a new job the next day. Anyway, so much for a short story.

Hey Eddie, where did that ramp check happen? It sounds like the description of one of the feds I know pretty well in the area.

The best thing I've found is to be on a first name basis with the feds in your home base area. They know me, I know them, and if there is ever trouble on the road, help is just a phone call away.

121 guy's fly with their maintenance logs? Does any body fly with their maintenance books, or log books for that matter?

I think the best thing for me to do is get off and stay off their radar. I don't trust the system and the fact that my W&B was not signed means my ducks are slightly askew and they could make my life even more miserable than it already is if they wanted to. I haven't received a love note from fsdo so I think it's over.
Dave

Superdave wrote:I think the best thing for me to do is get off and stay off their radar. Dave

Truer words have never been spoken when it comes to big brother.

Rob

The Company I work for carries the current and last log book on board and computer records for life of the airframe. That make about two months of records with you. Not uncommon to find airframes with way over 50,000 hours on them, so about everything has been changed at sometime.
The Fed ref. above was in DTW

58skylane wrote

"I'm dumping my holding tank into the RV dump". He explained that it was to be used by "RV's Only".

Ask him if he prefer you dump it in the street while you fill your fuel.

Bill

There was a period of time ten years or so back where the FAA HQ issued a fiat to the effect that every Inspector was to ramp check airplanes and pilots on a regular basis. Not sure of the wording of the instruction, but essentially, the old southern police officer "quota system".

Since at the time I was flying public aircraft with the exception of my airplane, which I was doing flight instruction in, and the FSDO guys knew both me, and that the airplanes would always be squeaky clean, I got ramped pretty much daily. Sometimes twice daily.

At first, it was sort of a pain, but then it got to be pretty humorous. They were always professional enough as to not delay a flight more than a few minutes.

As it turned out, I decided to make the most of the deal, by telling my passengers, coworkers and students that "this is the FAA, out doing it's job, verifying that the airplane and pilot are legal". Everyone, including the Inspectors, appreciated that approach, and eventually, the "policy" dissappeared, and ramp checks did as well.

In any case, that period contained literally dozens of ramp checks, and not a one became ugly at all. This was a period when that office (right across the field) was growing rapidly, and lots of new Inspectors, getting training.

Other than that time period, when I had a target on my back, I have rarely been ramped, but again, every time I have it's been very professional.

Some advice in the event you ARE ramped:

Have ALL the paperwork for the plane available. The A/W certificate must be viewable in the cockpit. Everything else I put in a binder, kept in an 8.5 x 11 zipper case. This includes the registration, a CURRENT, signed weight and balance for EVERY configuration (wheels, floats, skis down, skis up), a COPY of the logbook page containing the latest periodic inspection, a COPY of the AD compliance pages, and the AFM for the aircraft, including any FLight Manual Supplements required by installed equipment.

Note that if you have a panel mounted GPS, for example, the handbook for that unit constitutes a Flight Manual Supplement, and must be aboard the plane.

You are never required to have the maintenance logbooks aboard the plane, but keeping the latest annual signoff aboard gives the Inspector the opportunity to verify the plane is legal, and MAYBE prevents them from saying "Bring in your maintenance logs at your first convenience". That gives them the opportunity to dig, which could open doors.

That, all your pilot paperwork in order and a positive attitude should make a ramp check pretty much a pleasant experience.

MTV

Ramp Checking. This morning we had our usual group of buddies at the usual county airport restaurant. We had 10 tail draggers, parked in the grass - pavement, all over. We are sitting at the tables BS'ing and the waitress comes up and in a low voice says, "FAA is here ramp checking a guy and his cessna out on the ramp".

We looked like rats jumping from a burning ship as we "made for" our planes.
No pre flights just started ten planes and scattered out from mid field.

My thoughts are, since we all looked like bank robbers, next week they will
be back in teams looking for us??? That is the first time in 22 years, that I ever saw a ramp check at that airport.

mtv wrote:There was a period of time ten years or so back where the FAA HQ issued a fiat to the effect that every Inspector was to ramp check airplanes and pilots on a regular basis. Not sure of the wording of the instruction, but essentially, the old southern police officer "quota system".

Since at the time I was flying public aircraft with the exception of my airplane, which I was doing flight instruction in, and the FSDO guys knew both me, and that the airplanes would always be squeaky clean, I got ramped pretty much daily. Sometimes twice daily.

At first, it was sort of a pain, but then it got to be pretty humorous. They were always professional enough as to not delay a flight more than a few minutes.

As it turned out, I decided to make the most of the deal, by telling my passengers, coworkers and students that "this is the FAA, out doing it's job, verifying that the airplane and pilot are legal". Everyone, including the Inspectors, appreciated that approach, and eventually, the "policy" dissappeared, and ramp checks did as well.

In any case, that period contained literally dozens of ramp checks, and not a one became ugly at all. This was a period when that office (right across the field) was growing rapidly, and lots of new Inspectors, getting training.

Other than that time period, when I had a target on my back, I have rarely been ramped, but again, every time I have it's been very professional.

Some advice in the event you ARE ramped:

Have ALL the paperwork for the plane available. The A/W certificate must be viewable in the cockpit. Everything else I put in a binder, kept in an 8.5 x 11 zipper case. This includes the registration, a CURRENT, signed weight and balance for EVERY configuration (wheels, floats, skis down, skis up), a COPY of the logbook page containing the latest periodic inspection, a COPY of the AD compliance pages, and the AFM for the aircraft, including any FLight Manual Supplements required by installed equipment.

Note that if you have a panel mounted GPS, for example, the handbook for that unit constitutes a Flight Manual Supplement, and must be aboard the plane.

You are never required to have the maintenance logbooks aboard the plane, but keeping the latest annual signoff aboard gives the Inspector the opportunity to verify the plane is legal, and MAYBE prevents them from saying "Bring in your maintenance logs at your first convenience". That gives them the opportunity to dig, which could open doors.

That, all your pilot paperwork in order and a positive attitude should make a ramp check pretty much a pleasant experience.

MTV

Bring in your logs? I don't think so. I'm not bringing anything anywhere. If they would like to see them I'd be happy to scan the relevant page, otherwise they can come to me. I do not carry any maintenance logs whatsoever, including AD compliance. I disagree that any panel mount GPS requires that the manual be carried because not all panel mount GPS's installation requires it. They don't all make the manual an FMS. I've had conversations with the FSDO guys here in Montana. They have little to no time for part 91 ramp checks. If you get ramped in this state immediately go out and buy a lottery ticket as the odds of getting one are extremely slim. They simply don't have the time.