I have been lucky and the lady I talked to at the Sinclar distributor told me who was still buying the fuel without the ethanol added. I still have one station near my house where I can buy it.

Someone mentioned that the water will take out all the additives. That is not necessarily a bad thing since Avgas doesn't have additives in it anyway. The additives are one reason why you don't want to use Mogas in the first place. As the fuel evaporates, the additives are left behind and the residue can gum up stuff if you aren't flying a lot.

As for washing the fuel, I have a couple of cars that run WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) and you clean it with water too. I got a metal 55 gallon drum and put a garden facet right near the bottom. You can use a spray bottle and just spray it down a couple times a day. As the droplets travel down it will absorb the impurities in the WVO and I am sure it will work for ethanol too.

One thing you will need is time. The molecules are always moving and if you left it for a couple of weeks I am pretty sure all the ethanol would be at the bottom even if you don't stir it. You can put a light below the drum or a fuel heater inside the drum and the heat will circulate the fuel too. DON"T USE AN ELECTRIC DRILL!!!!! They have brushes inside and lots and lots of sparks!

I test all the fuel I put in, and the ethanol separates really fast if you shake it up. Almost instantly but it will take some time for the tiny unseen droplets in the fuel to fall out. You need to let the fuel sit or else there will still be water suspended.

I have a couple of 600 gallon Military tanks. One I use if I need to haul water and the other I have full of grease from the local recycling place. When the time comes, I will see if the Refinery will just sell me the gas without ethanol because ethanol is an additive and not in the gasoline when it is made. That would be the easiest way but I would feel comfortable washing the gas too.

Jerry

RDUStinson wrote

but I hear they've poisoned the ethanol to prevent exactly that...

The denaturant that is added at the ethanol plant is called "natural gasoline". It is a more volatile hydrocarbon that can't be put in the regular unleaded because it would just float away. E98 is what leaves the ethanol plant because of the addition of this 2% poison. In the early days they used acetone to poison ethanol. This is probably why ethanol got a bad rap since the acetone was eating the seals etc. Old wives tales seem to go on forever.

P.S. I just figured up my share of ethanol production from the three plants I invested in-----250,000 gallons. I have a positive attitude towards the stuff and have had good luck using it in all my gas burners.

The denaturant that is added at the ethanol plant is called "natural gasoline". It is a more volatile hydrocarbon that can't be put in the regular unleaded because it would just float away. E98 is what leaves the ethanol plant because of the addition of this 2% poison. In the early days they used acetone to poison ethanol. This is probably why ethanol got a bad rap since the acetone was eating the seals etc. Old wives tales seem to go on forever.

Interesting. So just what is this "natural gasoline"? Will it stay with the ethanol if washed out, or with the clean fuel, and then evaporate?

And are you saying that the "newer" ethanol blended fuels are compatible with all rubbers and seals whereas the older ones might not have been?

-Bill

This might help you guys in Oregon out. I am not sure how old it is so I would call before I hauled a bunch of barrels down to one of these guys.

http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/docs/EthanolList.pdf

I read that Ethanol is 129 octane. If you know the percentage of ethanol in the fuel you should be able to figure what the octane would be if you removed it. I read a couple sites and it varied between 2.7 and 3 Octane less after removing it so the low compression engines could use it but the ones that require 91 mogas are out of luck.

What is natural gasoline

Denaturant pricing movement affects blend volume
By Ron Kotrba

With the leeway in ASTM D 4806-07 that allows ethanol denaturant to vary between 2 percent and 5 percent, producers gauge prices and adjust denaturant blend concentrations accordingly. Recent pricing in natural gas and ethanol markets have led to blending denaturant toward the minimum volume allowable.

In mid-January, Data Transmission Network ethanol analyst Rick Kment said there have been a lot of pricing moves in the denaturant market lately. With margins still narrow after modest ethanol pricing recoveries, ethanol producers can save “a couple of cents per gallon” by navigating up or down denaturant blend concentrations in their final product, depending on what benefits the bottom line. “At a time when margins are so thin, that could be the difference between making a profit or not,” Kment said. For a 100 MMgy plant, a consistent savings of 2 cents per gallon could equate to $2 million over the course of a year.

Ethanol is denatured with natural gasoline to render the product undrinkable. Natural gasoline is a liquid hydrocarbon mixture from casinghead gas, which is natural gas obtained from the top (casinghead) of an oil well, as opposed to liquid natural gas from a natural gas well. The mixture largely consists of pentanes, which are saturated hydrocarbons with five carbon and 12 hydrogen atoms. “The denaturant market is a derivative of the natural gas market,” Kment told EPM. “It’s hard to find spot prices for natural gasoline, but it usually follows the [liquefied petroleum gas] price.” Unlike ethanol prices, which trade on a per-gallon basis, natural gasoline is sold in million-therm units (a therm is 100,000 British thermal units). In mid-January, the natural gasoline price per one-million therms was slightly more than $8. “We’re at the high end of where we have been recently,” Kment said. “While in the second half of 2005 it was significantly higher than what it is today, in August 2007 the natural gasoline price dipped down to $5.46.” Prices rose after that with a small dip in December 2007 but were back up to $8.17 at press time.

Pentane is what is added to AGE-85 at about 11% so that the engine can be started when cold. Ethanol, by its self, has a very low vapor pressure(won't float away)so needs help when it comes to starting a cold engine. Also, the octane of ethanol is closer to 110 to 114.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Month.asp

So some where (in the above link) there are several if not one case of somebody using mogas w/4%-6% ethanol that directly caused a crash which voided insurance? And everybody's logbooks are so perfect they could survive scrutiny of the FAA.

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

Glidergeek wrote:Vick
I know this horse has been beat way past death, but why do you feel you need to remove 4%-6% ethanol from your mogas?
Russ

Not Vick, but for me, I feel no need to do so, unless I am going to put it in my airplane. For the same reason I conduct due diligence on making sure my maintenance is logged and my equipment is approved I don't want unapproved fuel in the tanks - because when I crash I want the insurance company to own the airplane, not me; and would prefer judgements against me be paid by someone else with the initials AVEMCO. For an old 55 model airplane I doubt ethanol at such a low concentration will do that much damage, but we are stuck with what is legal, not what is safe

Marty

Wikipedia listed Ethanol at 129 octane. "alcohol fuels such as methanol or ethanol may have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher — ethanol's RON is 129 (116 MON, 122 AKI)"

I guess they could be wrong.

EZFlap, I'm cross posting this content from a similar thread on the yahoo Stinson forum - many folks there are as interested as many here with the prospect of washing the ethanol out. I AM NOT THE AUTHOR of the content below, but it to me sounds as good an explanation of any I've heard why shadetree ethanol washing is not a good idea.

Glidergeek - what everyone else who responded said regarding why I don't want to use mogas with ethanol content -- the STCs do not allow for it.

The process described below is called washing. I've done this in the lab and checked my results using chromatography. It's not as easy as explaining it.

If the raw material -- automotive fuel -- is a mix of only hydrocarbons and ethanol, the process works. It is based on the polar nature of water and alcohol, and the non-polar nature of hydrocarbons.

Add water to the gasoline and agitate. The water will not dissolve in the gasoline. Agitate the mixture. The alcohol will dissolve in the water, coming out of solution in the gasoline. Let the mixture sit, and the water/alcohol solution will fall to the bottom.

Physically, there are several impediments: In 55 gallon batches, there is approximately 5 gallons of alcohol to remove. There needs to be significant agitation to capture all the alcohol. In a lab, the separation of the liquid layers is done in a separatory funnel, a narrow glass tube with a precision valve at the bottom. An opaque fifty-five gallon barrel with a 5/8" valve is not ideal.

Chemically, it's not so simple either. Because ethanol is fundamentally immiscible in gasoline, refiners add a small amount of surfactant (detergent) that allows the alcohol to suspend in the gasoline. This is the same as using detergent in your washing machine to allow the water to carry the grease and oil away. If there is surfactant in the mix, the washing process will never be complete.

Environmentally, there is a big problem. After you wash the gas, the waste product is water, ethanol, surfactant, and probably, a small amount of hydrocarbons. It won't be pure enough to drink. You need to dispose of it somewhere. It will not dissolve grease on the belly.

Washing is a fine method for checking ethanol content. It won't work so well to produce alcohol-free fuel. I don't think it's going to be a viable process for Stinson owners.

If you're going to engage in this kind of backyard chemistry, it'll be more profitable to produce hooch or methamphetamines.

Glidergeek wrote:http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Month.asp

So some where (in the above link) there are several if not one case of somebody using mogas w/4%-6% ethanol that directly caused a crash which voided insurance? And everybody's logbooks are so perfect they could survive scrutiny of the FAA.

You missed my point. I'm not claiming that ethanol has caused crashes - I don't know one way or another.

Bill, I missed this before

And are you saying that the "newer" ethanol blended fuels are compatible with all rubbers and seals whereas the older ones might not have been?

I haven't tested everything, so better not say that. I have used 10% in everything I own and up to 50% in some of those( unmodified) things without problems. I know lots of others not having problems. My friend,farmer, and airport manager just bought a new 12 ft pull mower for the airport. He brought his old Oliver tractor down to pull it and had no power. He ended up having to clean the float bowl of the carb---it was loaded with gunk. It has never had any ethanol. He does use 10% in his cars and pickup though.Also, I still have the Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin, dated March 12 2003 stating a 180 just had new seals installed in the fuel selector and that when the plane was taxiing out for take off it died and couldn't be restarted. It was pulled back to the shop and found that those new seals swelled and cut the flow of fuel off. 100LL was the fuel. It also says that Valtec(Parker) manufactured that batch of seals using the wrong ingredients.

So renting is a pain in the ass and so is owning...hahaha!

Thanks Marty. I did some poking around and learned both viton and Buna-N rubber do swell and are therefore not recommended for use with ethanol. I believe some of our carbs have Viton-tipped float needles (at least). I'm not sure about the -6000 flexible fuel lines, but I do know that the last fabricated hose assembly I bought hat a giant red label on it that warned me that I might auger in if it encountered ethanol. I'm sure these aren't insurmountable problems, just problems that haven't been surmounted quite yet.

So some where (in the above link) there are several if not one case of somebody using mogas w/4%-6% ethanol that directly caused a crash which voided insurance? And everybody's logbooks are so perfect they could survive scrutiny of the FAA.

Glidergeek, are you implying that one should feel free to ignore all regs that haven't yet been proven to kill someone? Or since one's logbooks can't be perfect, why even try? I'm not sure I follow the logic.

-Bill

EZFlap wrote:....
I don't have any hands-on experience with shooting Heroin in my arm, but I know enough to make an educated recommendation about its use (don't). I didn't witness the signing of the Declaration of Independence, but I am qualified to discuss the general concept with some amount of credibility.

Kinda makes me think of a guy I know who was thinking of using automotive motor oil in his airplane. Given the high quality of lubricants these days, it'd probably be OK-- but I'm not about to tell him I think it's OK unless I am willing to use it also (which I'm not!). Talk is cheap, when it's "do as I say, not as I do". Let me know when you've run your airplane trouble-free for a year using the home-distilled-method gasoline you seem to be promoting.
BTW the TCDS for my Lycoming 320 sez 80/87 minimum grade for the 150-horse models, and either 91/96 or 100/100LL for the 160-horse versions. As I rcall, you fly a C172? FYI the TCDS for the Cont C-145 sez 80/87 minimum. I checked a few other TCDS's- the A65-8 is approved for 73 if you run the Stromberg carb, but if you've switched to a Marvel you need 80/87. The A65 is approved for 73, C-90 & O-200A need 80/87.
My comment about needing 97 octane was a typo (I can't type worth beams), my STC sez 87 octane minimum. That should have been obvious, but maybe not.

Eric

I'm saying that I have it on good authority that you can take the ethanol out of the car gas, which should allow it to meet the car gas STC. All other arguments for or against car gas are moot... if it is FAA approved to use it, then it becomes a personal choice for the aircraft owner. If there are surfactants, detergents, defoliants, crack cocaine or single malt scotch in car gas, and it is FAA approved so long as it has no ethanol, then that's a different argument!

I have not run my own airplane on washed car gas (yet) but it is something I would experiment with under safe, correct circumstances. I've run car gas a few times and it works the same on my engine as 100LL does. The experts all seem to agree that the reduction in lead makes a good impact on fouled spark plugs.

There have been more than one valid post for and against this idea (Washing out the ethanol). I went out of my way to say that anyone doing this should get more educated and test it out within gliding distance of the field.

On the same general principle of not talking about something I haven't used personally, would you be kind enough to tell all the people who have so cheerfully offered negative or doubtful reactions to certain aircraft mods and upgrades (which are FAA approved)... that they should likewise try it themselves before they say anything negative about it to influence others against it? There's a few people here that should adhere to that principle far more than an oversight on my part regarding gasoline.

But Hotrod, you're 100% correct about the 73 octane, I was remembering the 65 not the O-300. My mistake. But one recent post claims that the ethanol will account for about 2 or 3 points in Octane, so if that turns out to be accurate then the octane argument doesn't hold as much water.

I'll trade you that memory lapse on my part for the typo on your part

P. S. For safety's sake, I do recall a fairly well educated engine expert saying there was a reason you should not use even good car oil in an airplane, something related to "detergent oil" and "non-detergent". I ran race car oil at Reno in an O-200, but the airplane went to and from the race on a trailer

This is one of the articles I found on "phase separation", what it is and what it can do.

Monday, February 2, 2009
Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline
Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline’s


Phase Separation in Gasoline’s containing Ethanol is now a major problem for all users of gasoline.

Whether you use gasoline as a fleet operator or for your family car, classic car, boat, personal water-craft, motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV, RV, lawnmower, weed-whacker, generator, or any of the thousands of other types of equipment that use gasoline engines; you are being affected by Ethanol in your fuel.

Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, either liquid or in the form of humidity; the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.

Phase Separation is also temperature dependent. For example, E-10 can hold approximately .05% water at 60°F. To better understand the amount of water that we are talking about, picture 1 gallon of E-10 at 60°F. This gallon will hold approximately 3.8 teaspoons of water. However if the temperature drops to 20°F it can only hold about 2.8 teaspoons of water.

We recently were called to consult for a fleet where a fairly large number of vehicles were being regularly fueled from a single tank and about one-half the vehicles were stored inside and the other half were stored outside. After a night with a 30°F+ temperature drop, several of the vehicles stored outside developed problems with significant amounts of water found in the vehicle tanks. After checking the storage tank and finding no measurable water, they looked for other possible causes including sabotage. After looking at many possible causes this customer consulted with us and we were able to describe the Phase Separation through temperature change scenario and determine that this was the most likely cause of the problems.

Phase Separation can happen in an underground or an aboveground storage tank, a vehicle tank, a boat tank, in any type of equipment tank, and even in the gas can in your garage.

When this happens, you can have serious and even catastrophic engine problems, without warning.

When this Phase Separation occurs you will have an upper layer of gasoline with a milky layer of Ethanol and Water below it, and then in many cases a third layer of just water at the bottom.

If this happens and you try to start the engine you can have one or more of the following problems. If your fuel tank pick-up tube is in the water layer, most likely the engine will fail to start. If the engine is running and suddenly draws water you can have damage from thermal shock or hydro-lock. If the pick-up tube draws the Ethanol-Water mixture or just Ethanol you can have problems where the engine will operate in an extreme lean condition, which can cause significant damage or even catastrophic failure. If the pick-up tube draws the gasoline, it will operate very poorly due to lower octane that is the result of no longer having the Ethanol in the fuel.

Gasoline containing Ethanol provides further challenges and dangers for marine operators (Boaters) and other users of seasonal equipment such as motorcycles, personal water-craft, snowmobiles, ATV’s, RV’s, yard maintenance, generators, and other equipment.

Ethanol is a strong, aggressive solvent and will cause problems with rubber hoses, o-rings, seals, and gaskets. These problems are worse during extended storage when significant deterioration will take place. Hoses will delaminate, o-rings will soften and break down, and fuel system components made from certain types of plastics will either soften or become hard and brittle, eventually failing. Fuel system components made from brass, copper, and aluminum will oxidize to the point of failure.

Operators of boats with fiberglass fuel tanks built before 1993 can have actual structural failure as Ethanol will break down and pick-up some of the materials the tanks are made from. This causes two separate but equally serious problems. First the tanks can become so weakened that they can fail. In cases where the tank is part of the boats structure we have seen tanks become so weak that it is possible to collapse part of the deck just by walking on it. The second problem is that this material when dissolved from the fiberglass tank is carried through the fuel system and can cause damage to carburetors and fuel injectors and can actually get into the combustion chambers causing damaging deposits on valves and pistons. This material can be nearly impossible to remove without destroying the affected parts.

Two-Cycle engines have a special problem with Ethanol blended fuels. Two-Cycle engines function because the oil added to the fuel bonds to the engines metal surfaces and provides barrier lubrication to all the parts requiring lubrication. When Ethanol is added to the gasoline, it displaces the oil and forms a primary bond with the metal surfaces. This bond provides virtually no lubrication and can result in significantly increased wear and even catastrophic failure in a very short amount of time.

Until now the only preventative measures available to tank operators and end users was to try and make sure there was no water in the tank and that vents allowed a minimum amount of airborne water (humidity) into the tank.

Gasohol, E-10, E-20, and E-85 are the terms that refer to gasoline containing Ethanol. For example the most common fuel available today is E10. E-10 is 10% Ethanol and 90% gasoline, while E-85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline (Note: E-85 is actually E-70 in the winter in cold weather (Northern Tier) states.

Ethanol has less energy (as measure in Btu’s – British Thermal Units) per gallon than does regular unleaded gasoline. This means that the more Ethanol found in fuel the worse your fuel economy will be. You use more gallons of fuel containing Ethanol to go fewer miles.

This poor fuel economy is made worse by other EPA and State requirements for fuels to change seasonally. Until very recently we have used what is known as “Conventional” gasoline (CVG) in the winter and “Reformulated gasoline (RFG) in the summer. The theory is that the lower volatility of RFG will reduce the formation of green house gases. However RFG has lower Btu’s per gallon. RFG together with Ethanol results in a significant mileage penalty. My own vehicle drops about 2 miles per gallon or about 9% when using RFG with Ethanol.

For many years the refining industry used a chemical called MTBE to meet the oxygenate requirements set forth by the EPA. Generally refiners used 15% MTBE and 85% gasoline. However MTBE has now been virtually eliminated in the US due to its carcinogenic compounds and the huge potential problems caused by its pollution of as much as 75% of the ground water in the US and Canada.

This has left Ethanol as the primary additive to meet Federal and State oxygenate mandates.

Further the federal government currently subsidizes Ethanol with a $.51 per gallon tax credit that goes to the refiners or blenders. With E-10 this provides those refiners and or blenders with a $.051 per gallon subsidy on every gallon of gasoline that they sell.

In many cases we have seen gasoline containing more than 10% Ethanol. We test regularly and have seen fuel containing 12%, 13%, and even 14% Ethanol while the pump shows only 10%. Increasing the amount of Ethanol increases the refiner/blenders subsidy and profit while further lowering your fuel economy.

One more concern with Ethanol and RFG or Ethanol and CVG is that Ethanol when mixed with water; they readily form Gums in the fuel system much quicker than gasoline without Ethanol. These Gums coat fuel system components including filters, carburetors, injectors, throttle plates; and will then form varnish and carbon deposits in the intake, on valves, and in the combustion chamber. These deposits can coat sensors and plug catalytic converters.

The good news is that we now have products available to prevent and control Phase Separation and that we can dramatically reduce or eliminate most of the problems caused by Ethanol in Gasoline.

Because of all the problems with Ethanol Blended gasoline’s we will list some specific suggestions and recommendations on how to deal with and resolve many of these problems.

When Phase Separation occurs in fuel tank on a vehicle, boat or other piece of equipment, the tank should be completely drained. The tank should be refilled with good fuel and the fuel line purged prior to restarting the engine.

For Seasonal vehicles and equipment, e.g. boats, personal water-craft, motorcycles, classic cars, ATV’s, RV’s, lawn and garden equipment, gasoline powered generators, and so on, we recommend that you try to use conventional gasoline without Ethanol whenever possible and particularly prior to storage.

In ALL Two-Cycle gasoline engines where there is any possibility that you are using gasoline containing Ethanol we strongly suggest using a full synthetic two-cycle oil in the gas.

In bulk storage tanks where you believe phase separation may have occurred or where you are concerned it may happen. We suggest the use of a modified water finding paste such is made by the Kolor Kut Company. This paste starts out brown, if you dip the tank with a measuring stick with the paste and it turns yellow (even light or spotty yellow), you have significant water dissolved in the fuel, if the paste turns red you have free water.

If you have fuel that has Phase Separated and you have either two or three layers you should arrange to have the tank pumped from the bottom to remove the one or two bottom layers containing the water and or the Ethanol/Water mix. (Note: you should check again with the paste before the technician leaves to be certain that all the Water and Water/Ethanol has been completely removed). You do not need to remove the gasoline. Check with water finding paste after 24 hours. If no red or yellow present then add clean fuel to the tank to working capacity.

If you have specific questions, please contact me here or at:

EZFlap wrote:I'm saying that I have it on good authority that you can take the ethanol out of the car gas, which should allow it to meet the car gas STC. All other arguments for or against car gas are moot... if it is FAA approved to use it, then it becomes a personal choice for the aircraft owner. If there are surfactants, detergents, defoliants, crack cocaine or single malt scotch in car gas, and it is FAA approved so long as it has no ethanol, then that's a different argument!

I have not run my own airplane on washed car gas (yet) but it is something I would experiment with under safe, correct circumstances. I've run car gas a few times and it works the same on my engine as 100LL does. The experts all seem to agree that the reduction in lead makes a good impact on fouled spark plugs.

EZ - I'm with you on this and I applaud your desire to find a solution. Most folks here are running low-compression engines for which good old 87 octane pump gas is the ideal fuel. Even if it is definitively proven that ethanol in that gas won't harm any component of an aircraft, until one of the STC holders ponies up to prove that to the FAA the discussion is irrelevant to the certificated audience (I wouldn't count on this any time soon). Other lingering questions are what effect ethanol would have on engine performance due to its lower energy content which deteriorates further as it absorbs moisture.

We have ethanol in our mogas thanks to bad politics, not good chemistry. I might be able to determine that I could cut my gas with 10% horse piss without any detrimental effects, but that wouldn't make me want to do it. Instead of asking why we don't want to burn ethanol we should be asking why we would want to - what is the benefit? The only upside so far is that it is, by mandate, widely available. But if that remains the only benefit then we'll quickly return to the original question of how can we remove it and get back to the original clean mogas we liked to begin with.

shorton, I sure hope people don't believe much in that article. Lots of vehicles around here in NW Iowa are driven in minus 20* temps after the 10% ethanol fuel came out of a 50 degree underground fuel tank---no phase separation. The $.51 credit is wrong---it is $.45. I have a 2 cycle Lawnboy that has had 10% mixed with Lawnboy oil for at least 12 years and I don't think it is synthetic. It started on the first pull this spring with fuel that sat through the winter in an unheated garage. My sister and husband have a Boston Whaler fiberglass boat that is way older that 1993 and it has used 10% for years and still runs. Too bad such uneducated info is spread. The only way all that water can be introduced to the fuel to get phase separation is to either add it on purpose or leave the cap off of the tanks it is stored in.

Ethanol can be removed from gasoline by fractional distilation..that's how the gasoline is made and blended at the refinery, whether it is produced by catalytic cracking, simple distilization, or the polyimerization process. Personally I wouldn't want to go to this expense and time. Probably not a process I would want to set up in my back yard. I would go after other means of getting alcohol-less gas even if I had to get my own tank and haul it myself..which I already do. Only one station here has non-alcohlic 91 Octane in this town..Cenex.

Don't know, don't care, Someone asked about phase separation so I posted just one of several articles on it. just don't like being told what I have to do. Can't speak to the veracity of the article except for what I have seen.

The alcy won't hurt the fiberglass boat unless it has a fiberglass tank, what ever the boat is made of is irrelevant, only the tank and or lines, filters, ect may be affected.

The only things I can tell you for sure are that when you add too much alcohol to gas that has some water in it you will get this really nasty goopy shit that will not run anything. Alcy fuel delivers way worse mileage than regular gas, as I have seen several times when traveling long trips and being forced to buy alcy fuel and then cross state lines and buy reg fuel. You can see and feel the difference readily.

If you don't agree with what they say you can find someone on the net to show that black is white and zebras have polka dots, it's all out there.