Hi, folks. I am a student pilot, learning in the Piper Archer II. I am having a tough time achieving a successful (defined as a smooth, safe, elegant) soft-field takeoff. I'm hoping someone here may help me arrive at an epiphany.

Getting and keeping the nosewheel (I know, I know) off the ground goes fine. It's the forward push to get the mains off the ground that I'm struggling with. My instructor explained that I should look for a certain picture out the window - that is, that the forward push on the elevator needs to result in a certain pitch attitude, which looks a certain way out the window. I should use just enough elevator to achieve and maintain that picture while flying in ground effect before climbing out.

I understand what he's saying, but this is proving especially hard for me to do. I think I'm having a hard time with the idea of pushing forward when I'm just a few feet above the ground. Does anyone have any advice for how I might practice this maneuver and get better at it?

-Adam

Think LOW LEVEL high speed, the idea is to build up airspeed so you won't stall. It also comes in handy if you bounce the landing and want to get out there! your first instinct is to pull back on the yoke/ stick but that will get you dead quick in a stall dive to the runway.
Think level, speed,( push that yoke forward, with full thottle the plane will not dive it wants to go up but you want SPEED) PUSH FORWARD = SPEED. The picture your instructor is talking about is level to the ground to get perspective that you are level. Some people use an aiming point until they know level. Build speed, 80 mph will work, then gradually head for the blue safe sky. SPEED and Altitude are your friend!!

als wrote:Getting and keeping the nosewheel (I know, I know) off the ground goes fine. It's the forward push to get the mains off the ground that I'm struggling with.

I'm not a CFI.

Although you may have to relax the back pressure to keep from hitting the tail on the ground while you accelerate I don't think you really need to "push to get the mains off the ground". Once the mains are off the ground you may have to push a little to keep the airplane from climbing since your aim is to be level a few feet off the ground as you accelerate.

Maybe you can tell your instructor about your apprehension and practice a few times up a little higher. For example you can do a normal take off but level off at 20 feet and accelerate before resuming your climb, then level out at 10 feet, then 5. Pretty soon you will be taking off at the minimum airspeed and leveling out a foot above the ground while accelerating to VY. Sounds like a great soft field take off to me.

I agree it is not about getting your wheels off the ground. Your leaping into the air and then go level. I am not a CFI either so consider this as mentoring, Talk over what we said with your instructor.

I agree there is no push to get the mains off the ground. You have the first part which is lifting the nose however do not pull it too far back or you will create more drag by having the wings at too high of an angle of attack. Then instead of thinking of pushing the yoke think of it as a gradual decrease in back pressure. The push is the wrong idea rather you are gradually releasing back pressure as the lift starts filling the wings. This is all by feel really, but ends up in maintaining the same pitch attitude w/o all the back pressure as the wings start doing their job. Then just hold it in ground effect until accelerated to the speed you want to use for climb out.....i think you're confusion is in the push...no push is needed...

Mike

The push/ relax is dependent on how much power. When you go full throttle with 235hp or higher you push forward. Less horsepower I relax the stick / yoke.
I'm not familiar with a Piper Archer II, I am guessing 180hp so relax the yoke forward until level if still climbing push forward.

als wrote:Hi, folks. I am a student pilot, learning in the Piper Archer II. I am having a tough time achieving a successful (defined as a smooth, safe, elegant) soft-field takeoff. I'm hoping someone here may help me arrive at an epiphany.

Getting and keeping the nosewheel (I know, I know) off the ground goes fine. It's the forward push to get the mains off the ground that I'm struggling with. My instructor explained that I should look for a certain picture out the window - that is, that the forward push on the elevator needs to result in a certain pitch attitude, which looks a certain way out the window. I should use just enough elevator to achieve and maintain that picture while flying in ground effect before climbing out.

I understand what he's saying, but this is proving especially hard for me to do. I think I'm having a hard time with the idea of pushing forward when I'm just a few feet above the ground. Does anyone have any advice for how I might practice this maneuver and get better at it?

-Adam

Whew! I've only been flying in the dirt for 40 years and only was a CFI for 35 of those, but I've NEVER heard of such a technique! Push forward to get the mains off the ground?

For me, a soft field take-off in a nose-dragger is as simple as a brick. Start the roll with full back stick to get the nose up as soon as possible. As soon as the nose responds to that back pressure, let it rise maybe 10-15 degrees and then do whatever it takes to hold it at that attitude until you break ground. Don't think about yoke position or pressure, just hold the nose where you want it. The exact amount of nose up will vary from one type to another and the only way to know it is to practice with some distance markers to see what works best. The whole point is to get the aircraft to fly at the slowest possible speed to get the wheels out of the muck and then accelerate in the air, not on the ground.

It is, I admit, a rather subtle line between having the nose too high so that the aircraft is stalling before leaving the ground and having it too low so that the nose gear is still in the muck creating drag. It's also difficult to feel on a hard surface because it doesn't make much difference. The best way to learn this is to go find a wet soft grass surface and practice.

Or you could learn to fly seaplanes. Getting an underpowered or overloaded seaplane up on the step and flying is virtually identical to a mucky soft field take-off. The most famous video of a real hairy soft field take-off is Lindberg leaving Roosevelt Field on his Paris flight. If you watch the elevators carefully you will see a lot of adjustments but very little change in aircraft attitude. He does bounce it a few times!

Attitude is everything!

Rocky

als, I understand what you mean, I am not a CFI either, as a matter of fact I am a student that is going for my check ride next week. I am training in the Cherokee which is the predecessor of the Archer as I understand so they fly similar (sort of a flying brick).

On soft field take off, it takes some back pressure to get the nose off early, once the mains come up, if you relax back pressure with 25 degrees flaps it wants to climb. To keep it from climbing, you need to push forward, as speed builds it requires more pressure to keep you down low.

Like was mentioned earlier, once you feel the mains come up, all you want to do is level off, it will take some pressure. Watch your airspeed, once you hit Vx or Vy, slowly release the pressure and it will naturally climb.

It was said earlier, the plane naturally wants to climb, you have to prevent that until you are at a safe airspeed. It seems unnatural at first, but your instructor will work with you. You may want to try a normal take off with no flaps (less pressure to prevent the climb) and make it a game to see how low you can stay for how long. Pick an intersection or taxiway towards the end of the strip and practice staying low until you get to that point, then let the plane start climbing. You can eventually get it to where you are only 5-10 feet up and it is not a weird feeling.

As your instructor said, you are looking for a specific sight picture, maybe the rivets on the cowl hinge line up with the horizon or something in the distance when you are level.

Take it slow, keep it comfortable, talk with your instructor or find a mentor you can talk with. Ask your instructor to demonstrate the maneuver. When he/she is doing it, look at the sight picture, find out what the rivets line up with. Keep your hands on the controls and feel what it is your instructor is doing and correlate that to the picture you see, or the rivets.

Sorry so long, I had a few struggles myself, sometimes a demo made the light come on, sometimes it was the 50th time we talked about it and the 500th time I messed it up before I understood.

Good luck, keep at it, you'll really be happy you did, I am.

I agree with Rocky, the best way to learn soft field technique is to practice it at a soft field. That being said, most flight schools/FBOs have ignorant insurance companies who think anything but asphalt is dangerous.

The technique I teach when working on staying in ground effect is to keep the eye focus ABOVE the end of the runway. (In fact, I teach this technique for landing/takeoff roll regardless of the type of takeoff/landing, conventional gear or tricycle, single engine recip or airliner). This is counter-intuitive until you get used to it; but the PERIPHERY is the part of your vision that catches those tiny cues that require subtle actions/corrections by the pilot. The periphery will help you anticipate the little corrections that are required to keep the airplane right there, two feet off the runway, accelerating to Vx or Vy or whatever speed you are looking for...

The Lindberg takeoff IS a classic example of those little corrections with no change in attitude of the airplane. Watch any tailwheel pilot during the landing roll and you will see the rudder twitching back and forth with (hopefully) no change about the vertical axis (directional control). Same thing happens to the elevator in the early phase of a good soft field takeoff. Find that nose-up climb sight picture right away as you add power, hold it until the mains leave the surface, and then gradually lower the nose - at first just releasing back pressure, then transitioning to forward stick pressure - as the airplane accelerates. Keep your focus above the runway the whole time! Try it in the landing flare too... and keep your eyes up through the rollout all the way until exiting the runway (especially critical in tailwheel airplanes). It is a little weird at first, but give it a few repititions and I guarantee your touchdowns will improve and be more consistent - or your money back!

M

Take a trip with another instructor. I know this sounds like treason, but sometimes a different instructor will be able to explain something or show you something that just works. Your instructor should not be offended or defensive, and may even be able to recommend another instructor that you could fly with.

I talked this over with my instructor and his suggestion was to do some low level passes over the centerline while in the pattern. This way you will see the picture you want to achieve after take off.

I'd say get up to altitude and work on transitioning between really-slow slow flight and climb.

Get 10 or 20 degrees flaps out, slow it down, get some power on and hold the attitude that is most like your soft field takeoff attitude. Slow it way down, until the stall warning is chirping at you, then put in full power and see what it feels like to level it out and start climbing without suffering any sink. You don't have the benefit of ground effect, but you'll get to "push."

Just a thought. There's nothing like the real thing. When I was transitioning to tailwheel, I loved doing 3-point takeoffs (which aren't really the best for soft field) because of the added directional stability of having the tailwheel contacting the runway. It's the same thing though: It breaks ground, but is too slow to climb safely, so you relax a tad to build airspeed but not lose any altitude (what little you have.)

punkin170b wrote:The technique I teach when working on staying in ground effect is to keep the eye focus ABOVE the end of the runway. (In fact, I teach this technique for landing/takeoff roll regardless of the type of takeoff/landing, conventional gear or tricycle, single engine recip or airliner). This is counter-intuitive until you get used to it; but the PERIPHERY is the part of your vision that catches those tiny cues that require subtle actions/corrections by the pilot. The periphery will help you anticipate the little corrections that are required to keep the airplane right there, two feet off the runway, accelerating to Vx or Vy or whatever speed you are looking for...

Punkin has it right, IMHO.

Go fly a Stearman or a 195 or something with little to no forward vis and you'll figure out how important peripheral vision is. I'll add one thing, for your peripheral vision and "sight picture" to stay accurate, you can't be craning and tilting or looking around while in transition. Keep your noggin as still as possible. The more you bounce around in the seat the harder it'll be to stay smooth.

Headoutdaplane wrote:Take a trip with another instructor. I know this sounds like treason, but sometimes a different instructor will be able to explain something or show you something that just works. Your instructor should not be offended or defensive, and may even be able to recommend another instructor that you could fly with.

That was my thought. Oftentimes another instructor can say just the right thing to make the concept click.

The technique that 2 different CFI's have shown me for practicing soft field is to make multiple passes down the runway as low and slow as possible. Sounds dangerous as heck, so get your instructor to show you. The idea is to come in like you were doing a soft field landing, then use the minimum power needed to just barely keep the tires off the tarmack. You'll settle in and roll, then barely lift off again several times. The point is to get used to flying on the verge of stall in ground effect. As you come to the end of each run slowly feed in power and lower the nose to get up to Vx before letting the plane climb out of ground effect.

Trust me, it's a lot easier than it sounds. The ground effect feels sort of like a cushion of air under the plane. I've frequently glanced down and seen my wheels rolling when I swore I was airborn while doing this. They were just barely touching with no real weight on the gear.

Other than that I agree that you shouldn't be letting the nose drop until you're off the ground. I've only ever heard of one pilot claiming to push to lift the mains, and that was in a Boeing. Also, pick up a copy of the Mountain Flying Bible. It describes soft and short field techniques in far greater detail and clarity than anything I've seen.

don't worry, you'll get it and all of a sudden it'll just "click".

Phil

Yep, another instructor may also have some verbiage or technique that "clicks" for you. I send my students purposefully with other instructors several times during training. This often helps conquer any of those "learning plateaus" that we all have once in a while.

Now, about that soft field tailwheel technique... A great topic in and of itself. Curious to know what y'all do and/or teach...

I use neutral stick, maybe slightly forward stick (depending on the airplane, the surface and the "feel" of the situation) after initial power application to raise the tailwheel just barely out of the muck... ideally just a couple of inches. Then reapply aft stick as needed to keep it there until the bird breaks free with the mains. Then the rest of the takeoff run is just like a tricycle gear...

If you try to raise the tail all the way, you are just smushing the mains down into the guck, creating drag and defeating yourself. I have a friend -who has a friend - who ended up with the nose of his 185 in the mud trying to raise the tail all the way up in muddy conditions...

If you go three-point, you are dragging the tailwheel in the muck and thus also defeating your efforts. Then you have to clean all that icky stuff out of your tailwheel assembly.

M

Thank you all for your advice and ideas. It's very helpful to think about doing things differently from time to time.

Perhaps I didn't describe my technique very well the first time. Thinking about it more, I'm not pushing the elevator forward to get the wheels in the air... I guess it's more to keep the airplane from climbing out at a slow airspeed *as* the wheels come off the ground. I had the cause-and-effect wrong in my head at first.

Good news is I'm going for a lesson tomorrow, so I'll talk about it more with my instructor.

hooznext, your description of the process makes a lot of sense and was pretty easy to visualize. I think I've had trouble with the sight picture issue in general throughout my training. It has recently started to really come together (I did some nice steep turns last time out that were to less than half the PTS standards. ) You're right that sometimes nothing works until one day it just does.

als, hopefully everyone's input helps, you are doing the right thing and asking for assistance on what you are struggling with. Be sure to discuss this openly with your instructor whenever you don't understand or fell comfortable, you are paying them to help you. As others said, it is sometimes best to go up with a different instructor, maybe the way they describe it or demonstrate it suddenly makes you light go on.

Don't forget to try different things to help you in the maneuvers like steep turns to get the "picture" to look right. I had a lot of problems on steep turns, then one day I noticed the rivet lines for the cowl hinges had a way of lining up right on the horizon for me when the attitude was correct. May not work for you, but something will become evident for you as your training progresses.

There is a lot of experience on this site, these guys and gals can help you tremendously and the newbies like you and I don't get harassed, just the opposite, lots of advice and encouragement.

Good luck, I'm off to schedule my check ride, if I can get the examiner on the phone.

Headoutdaplane wrote:Take a trip with another instructor. I know this sounds like treason, but sometimes a different instructor will be able to explain something or show you something that just works. Your instructor should not be offended or defensive, and may even be able to recommend another instructor that you could fly with.

Why go with an instructor at all? The last thing you need is some 20 something kid who's never been off the pavement yet has the almighty CFI. Find somebody who flies off road because he wants to and does it a lot. If he's a CFI too then consider it a bonus.

Wow! no gross generalizations in that post. Irregardless of their age, professional CFIs make at least some of their living teaching, that is, in the transfer of knowledge and (surprisingly enough) many have been off pavement and can teach the technique as the FAA wants it performed in a checkride. A ride with a different instructor is never a bad thing, every pilot has different techniques (witness the posts on short landings) and every pilot I know has taken the best techniques from all the folks they have flown with and made them their own.