I have a disease. There is no name for it but it is characterized by a strong irrational desire to either build or restore a plane. Good news is it’s not terminal, but unfortunately the only treatment is to scratch the itch until it goes away.

I have two projects in mind. One is to build a Super Cub. The other is to rebuild a Stinson. I’m leaning toward the Stinson because it is more flexible as my mission changes… that and I have an unnatural attraction to them.

I’m not an A&P, so I have a bit of a problem if I decide to go the Stinson route. The mechanic who I worked with and who’s trust I gained when I owned my Pacer has closed up his shop in search of greener pastures that provide health insurance. He was open to working with owners on things like rebuilds. He was also the only A&P that I’ve worked with, so I don’t know if his helpful attitude is typical. I don’t own a plane anymore, so I really don’t have a way to build a relationship that way. I’m hesitant to show up at the new guy’s hangar and say “Hey, you don’t know me, but you wanna supervise my work while I rebuild this basket case?”

So, I’m wondering do people like me scare the bejesus out of mechanics? When I think about what I’m asking I can understand why it might cause some to be nervous. Anything short of physically looking over my shoulder while I perform every little task requires some level of trust. I know a number of people who aren’t mechanics and have rebuilt planes and I’ve noticed that a number of people on here have done the same. The question is how did you convince the mechanic that you really do know enough not to endanger his good name with your skills? Were you already good buddies or did you sit down with someone new and work up a plan of attack?

How much do you really want to build? Or do you just want to resurrect something that's on its way to the junkyard?

Sometimes I think finding a neglected machine that needs new fabric would be a fun project, but there are so many other variables like the engine, that really represent a formidable cost.

I don't think it's something that should be seen as an investment, since you'll never recoup your money if you're not an A&P, maybe not even then. If you just enjoy the building aspect, that's different.

Maybe start with some RC models? Ha ha.

Hi, my name is Phil...And I...am a homebuilder Sounds like we've got the same itch.

To answer your question: You generally have to know the mechanic for several years. During that time you work on your aircraft with them so they can teach you the right way to do things. That builds up their confidence that you'll do things right, and more importantly, ask them what the right way is.

I debated between homebuilts and finding a Citabria or Champ project to rebuild/restore. I have an unnatural attraction to Citabrias like you do for Stinsons I finally decided to scratch build, rather than do a restoration, and eventually selected the Bearhawk Patrol (2 place version). I'm currently on step 1, finish all my other projects first. :p

Phil

My advice is to go talk to some other owners and some mechanics around the area. I've got a few here that are working under my eye, and they do pretty well! I don't hesitate to let them know when they aren't doing it to my satisfaction, and am ready to remind them who's responsible, but that's not the problem.
There's mechanics out there that will work with you... some enjoy it!
I personally think the Stinson is a great project...you can see some pics of one that I redid in my album... and rumor has it that there's another one lurking around in the shadows....
JH

I have had this build/restore plan for several years now. I flip/flop back and forth between the two on a regular basis. One day I prefer rebuilding a little more because I get a great deal of satisfaction in taking something someone else has given up on an making something nice out of it. The next day I'm into homebuilding because I'm making something out of nothing and I have the flexibility to adapt it to my needs. Sure enough, the winds change again and I'm back to thinking how great it would be to putt-putt around in a classic that I rescued from the scrap yard.

I think I've finally settled on rebuilding a Stinson because it fits more of what I want a plane to do. Although exploring the NW in a Super Cub is awful appealing...

Anyway, it looks like I'm not way out in left field after all. I was hoping to hear that the mechanic that I use to work with wasn't all that of a rarity and it sounds like he's not.

hardtailjohn wrote:My advice is to go talk to some other owners and some mechanics around the area. I've got a few here that are working under my eye, and they do pretty well! I don't hesitate to let them know when they aren't doing it to my satisfaction, and am ready to remind them who's responsible, but that's not the problem.
There's mechanics out there that will work with you... some enjoy it!
I personally think the Stinson is a great project...you can see some pics of one that I redid in my album... and rumor has it that there's another one lurking around in the shadows....
JH

John - I was hoping you would chime in. Your posts have been helpful to me in the past. Thanks

Jr., Phil, and others-

How did you ever decide to scratch build? It just seems so daunting. All that cut-fit-grind-fit-grind-fit-grind-fit-tack-tack repeat 3264 times. I like building but I like progress too, and that tedium makes me question my fortitude.

I remember seeing a site where this guy documented the construction of his 4-place Bearhawk. His mantra must have been "Why buy it if I can make it." He made wing ribs and all. Impressive!

Are you a member of a local EAA Chapter? I look over a couple restorations that are ongoing and here's what I look for in a rebuilder.
!. Quality of work above all else
2. Willingness to do it right whatever it costs.
3. Willingness to take advice.
4. Some natural skill.
5. Understanding going in, it takes 3 times as long and costs 3 times as much as originally thought.
DON'T BE CHEAP!!!

I'm currently in the process of restoring a 1948 Cessna 170, serial number 18024. I bought her a year ago, and I can tell you the process has been awfully rewarding. She was blown over in 1979 in a windstorm and hasn't flown since. As a pilot, the process of rebuilding this aircraft has been invaluable. I'll never pre-flight an aircraft the same way. I've got several A&P's that have been more than willing to help along with guys in the local EAA chapter. It does take 3 times longer, cost 3 times as much, but its worth it in the end. N2520V will have her first annual this year since 1979. I've learned sheet metal, fabric, electrical, avionics, engines, all about corrosion, paint, the list goes on and on. The Stinson 108 is a classic, I'd love to do a restoration on one. Take the plunge.

-Dustin

JRStripe,
If you did do a cub would you be opposed to going experimental? Then you wouldn't have the mechanic issue. To be perfectly honest I hope to build a Smith cub someday and trade / sell my cub up to a C-180. I am really starting to think on a "cub type" experimental is the way to go.

JRStripe wrote:Jr., Phil, and others-

How did you ever decide to scratch build? It just seems so daunting. All that cut-fit-grind-fit-grind-fit-grind-fit-tack-tack repeat 3264 times. I like building but I like progress too, and that tedium makes me question my fortitude.

I remember seeing a site where this guy documented the construction of his 4-place Bearhawk. His mantra must have been "Why buy it if I can make it." He made wing ribs and all. Impressive!

1. I'm currently helping someone else build a kit plane. I'm not impressed with the quality of some parts or the nstructions. So that's part of the appeal of plans building. I can buy or fabricate components to my standards. And if I have to figure something out, I'm not worried about making the stuff supplied with the kit work. Plus I never have to worry about the manufacturer disappearing and ending up with a kit that can't be finished.

2. I have an aircraft to fly in the mean time, so I'm not in a big hurry to get one airborn.

3. I love to build stuff, especially if it means learning new skills. Part of the Bearhawk's appeal for me is the metal wings and tube & fabric fuselage. That many more skills I get to learn.

4. I'm working on a lot of projects around the house now and confirming my long held theory. It's far easier to do something right the first time rather than try and fix what someone else has done wrong, or just different than I would have.

5. No worries about finding the exact and only part that's approved for the aircraft. I'm not talking major components, but accessories. Things like fuel valves, pullies, props, wheels, brakes etc. For example, I needed a 337 to put Cleveland wheels on my C-150. They slide right on with no modifications, and are approved on later model 150's, just not on my particular model.

6. And of course the future ability to do my own annuals and such is attractive too.

Anyway, that was my reasoning, hope it helps.

Phil

The Stinsons are great machines. You can rebuild one with mostly new parts as they are supported by Univair. The Franklin engine is smooth and makes good power. The cranks are the hard part to get at this point. There are a few very good Franklin guys around, and as a nice surprise the cost less to go through than lycs and conts.

The Stinson flys like a dream and they have very good useful loads, mine is good for 1175 pounds.

I would think that you would like one, are you a large or small tail kind a guy, Yes Yes I know, come on guys have a good time with that.

Dane

I can appreciate the slim petite tail of the -2 but I think if I owned one I'd be a little envious every time I saw a large tailed one taxi by.

Oh, forgot to say in my post that I have a project in my garage right now.
A little PA-15 Vagabond. I too have that incurable disease.

I did see a Super Stinson Project, pretty much complete yesterday... now I just have to remember where.... but it stuck in my mind as fairly reasonable price and project wise.
JH

hardtailjohn wrote:I did see a Super Stinson Project, pretty much complete yesterday... now I just have to remember where.... but it stuck in my mind as fairly reasonable price and project wise.
JH

John - If you remember definitely let me know. So far the projects that I've seen sound good in the ad, but when you call the seller you find out that it's a bunch of parts that have changed hands a number of times. I did find one in Maine that was complete, but the engine needed a cam and the costs of moving it across the country ate into my acquisition budget more than a little.

The Franklins cause me a little heartburn. People who own them seem to like them and they seem like a solid design, but I have a feeling that in 10 years when I would be ready to overhaul it again I'd be SOL if I needed a crank or cam. One of the guys at Lil' Red Aero told me that they had a number of engines sitting waiting for parts right now. I kind of like the sounds of the Lyc O-360 STC. It seems like a nice blend of increased power, lower operation costs, and a very common engine (when compared to the 220 Frank). Anybody fly in a O-360 conversion?

The O-360 should be 180 hp. The 220 Franklin is well 220 hp. I believe there are 200hp IO-360's though.

JR, I did a bit of brain dusting and remembered Here's a link to the ad...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Stinson/message/18532

Good luck!
JH

JR,

I've just finished my 4th Stinson overhaul (3 months ago). I have the 5th sitting bare bones waiting for it's turn. When I say overhaul, I'm talking about airframe, fabric, and engine. I don't say rebuild because that happens after some kind of wreck, and I don't say restoration because that indicates a totaly original look. I'm not an A&P, so I work under the watchful eye of an IA. There are a few Stinsons waiting for someone to resurrect them, but finding them is probably the biggest problem. The best thing, unless you're familiar with them, is to find one that is unassembled, and maybe flyable rather than one that has been disassembled for years. It's difficult to tell if all the parts are there, even if you're familiar with them.

It's a hugely satisfying thing to finish a project of that magnitude, to me, actually more enjoyable than flying (after the first several flights).

Jerry

There's really a lot to taking on a restoration project and it can seem overwhelming at times. Although you need to look at it as a 'one step at a time' thing you also need to be wary of the not seeing the trees due to the forest (opposite of not seeing the forest due to the trees) because at first you're giving the whole thing an overview look and so you're inevitably going to miss a few details.

Here's an example: I bought a Luscombe project. I went down and spent a whole day looking the stuff over and it all looked good. Later, as I started to take things apart and rebuild I got to the wheels and brakes. This airplane has the old Cleveland mechanical drum brakes and magnesium wheels. When I disassembled them they were pretty nasty but they were restorable. I had dodged a bullet because I later found out that it would cost $8000 to completely replace those crummy old wheels and brakes (or the better option of $4000 to install a modern set of hydraulic brakes) All older airplanes are gonna have a few of those potential 'gotchas'

Another thing that you won't plan for is what I call the 'relativity effect' Another example is a pretty rough looking lower cowl. So I order a new one from Univair. When it arrives I drill the nosebowl off the old one and when I set it next to the new lower cowl now suddenly the nosebowl looks like crap. Didn't really notice it when it was riveted to that beat up old lower cowl.

Anyway, you get the point