pouellette wrote:

gbflyer wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:Looks great!! What all is in the panel?

So, no backup tach...

I think I posted this before, I installed this cheap 10 dollar ebay tac on a whim as a backup to the analog one, but it is now my main tac. Rock solid, you need only wrap one signal wire around the number one plug wire, and ground.

Man I went through 4 of those (3 different brands) from the cheap $9 ones up to one that was 3X something. 1 didn't work at all, 1 wasn't accurate or even close to regardless of which mode (cylinders) I picked, and the other two were real erratic reading. Picked different plug wires... only thing they had in common was similar pathing back to the panel... they were not real close to other wiring, but possibly close enough to the rotax recommended cap etc. Maybe there was some bleed over/feedback being picked up.

Playing with a hall sensor / magnet on the backside of the spinner now to see what I can do with that.. one of the MGL instruments can pickup a signal this way. Sorry for the off topic, but I was bummed I couldn't make one of those cheapies work like others have.

Good info both. Thanks.

Another run up and leak check.

courierguy wrote:

gbflyer wrote:Works for us on the S7, bearing in mind experimental is what it is and it's your big butt in the seat. [emoji1]

Many eliminate the electric fuel pump too and rely on the engine driven side. We left that alone but I usually forget to use it.

Electric fuel pump, what's that?!
Looking good, interesting that its that light also, especially with that panel.

I don't know if he weighed the components separately, but it would be interesting to know how it compares to a steam gauge panel. I imagine a full analog 6-pack would weigh more but I don't know. This AFS unit has way more features in one display than one could ever need for VFR flight.

I hear ya on the fuel pump. This S20 has that header tank mounted fairly low in the system so I am thinking it's probably a good idea? Not sure why the older style S7S with dual pick-up ports and no header has it though, perhaps a CYA thing which is understandable.

I have the Milloway style 3 gallon header tank up high in the baggage area, so no e pump needed.

If I was building today, I'd go with what I have now panel wise, the little GRT MINI flight display, the IFLY GPS, and the GRT EIS with the idiot light when the pre set engine parameters aren't met. No round gauges at all. Super simple to install, both in wiring and the actual cutting of the panel. A unacknowledged advantage of these small or big screens we use now compared to the antique 3" round gauges, is you can leave some wiring slack and after unscrewing the fasteners pull the display from the panel enough to provide easy access to other stuff back there.

Going that simple may save 10 lbs?? But not as slick as what you have of course. I wish I didn't like what I'm flying now so much, I'd get more fired up on building again, but I look forward to getting your comparative impressions between the 7 you have and the new 20. Interesting aeronautical discussion as they have the same exact damn wing, so it comes down to what the fuselage differences do to the flight characteristics.

Those doors look a tad less tall then the 7's? If I couldn't fit my E-Montague folding bike in there, that'd be a deal breaker for me anyway!

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@ GBFLYER: Again, great build. Beautiful plane

I went back and was re-reading all the trials and tribulations you experienced. Ugh. Looking at the earlier posts and the damages which you suffered, I then remembered a German video I had seen a long time ago. It’s about “Klause” the fork lift operator. I thought about posting in the humor section, but it really is more appropriate here in this thread.

The following 2 videos really press home the point that not all cargo freight handlers are created equal. The first video listed below is long but is really a classic that went viral. It features “Klause”, and is actually a German training video (English translation dubbed in) for fork lift operators. He is called "Chad" in the English dubbed version. It is the better of the two, and a tad long, but worth the watch for sure. Maybe this Klause fellow is now working for your buddies over at NAC or Conway :

Klause the Fork Lift Driver


Other

I’m glad these guys don’t work dispatch.

gb,
What size tires are you running on the S7 and the S20. Looks like possibly 26" airstreaks and the newer 8.50 smoothie?
I currently have the 29" Airstreaks on my S7 but with the stock rod type gear, I personally think they are overkill and not in the position to buy and install the Robert's gear for a while. I am thinking of removing the 29's and putting on the Desser 8.50 smoothies. I will be removing a ot of weight (+/- 30 lbs) and less drag. The flying I have been doing lately, the 8.50's are totally adequate.

GB,

Thanks for sharing your build. It really looks great.

[vidme][/vidme]

That is one good video Denali, I watched it while sitting in my crane waiting for the pipefitters to get off break , laughing my ass off!

Denali wrote:.
@ GBFLYER: Again, great build. Beautiful plane

I went back and was re-reading all the trials and tribulations you experienced. Ugh. Looking at the earlier posts and the damages which you suffered, I then remembered a German video I had seen a long time ago. It’s about “Klause” the fork lift operator. I thought about posting in the humor section, but it really is more appropriate here in this thread.

The following 2 videos really press home the point that not all cargo freight handlers are created equal. The first video listed below is long but is really a classic that went viral. It features “Klause”, and is actually a German training video (English translation dubbed in) for fork lift operators. He is called "Chad" in the English dubbed version. It is the better of the two, and a tad long, but worth the watch for sure. Maybe this Klause fellow is now working for your buddies over at NAC or Conway :

Klause the Fork Lift Driver

Other

I’m glad these guys don’t work dispatch.

Had seen neither. Thanks, very fitting.

WWhunter wrote:gb,
What size tires are you running on the S7 and the S20. Looks like possibly 26" airstreaks and the newer 8.50 smoothie?
I currently have the 29" Airstreaks on my S7 but with the stock rod type gear, I personally think they are overkill and not in the position to buy and install the Robert's gear for a while. I am thinking of removing the 29's and putting on the Desser 8.50 smoothies. I will be removing a ot of weight (+/- 30 lbs) and less drag. The flying I have been doing lately, the 8.50's are totally adequate.

We have a set of the Desser 8.50 smooth for winter and a set of 29" Airstreaks for summer on the S7. We are running the 8.50's on the S20 tubeless. They seem to leak down a little. Nice and light. We're going to get a set of the Desser tundra tires to try on the S20 after we fly off the phase 1. George at Matco has the 8" wheels.

courierguy wrote:I have the Milloway style 3 gallon header tank up high in the baggage area, so no e pump needed.

If I was building today, I'd go with what I have now panel wise, the little GRT MINI flight display, the IFLY GPS, and the GRT EIS with the idiot light when the pre set engine parameters aren't met. No round gauges at all. Super simple to install, both in wiring and the actual cutting of the panel. A unacknowledged advantage of these small or big screens we use now compared to the antique 3" round gauges, is you can leave some wiring slack and after unscrewing the fasteners pull the display from the panel enough to provide easy access to other stuff back there.

Going that simple may save 10 lbs?? But not as slick as what you have of course. I wish I didn't like what I'm flying now so much, I'd get more fired up on building again, but I look forward to getting your comparative impressions between the 7 you have and the new 20. Interesting aeronautical discussion as they have the same exact damn wing, so it comes down to what the fuselage differences do to the flight characteristics.

Those doors look a tad less tall then the 7's? If I couldn't fit my E-Montague folding bike in there, that'd be a deal breaker for me anyway!

It will be interesting, hope to know more in a couple months.

First impression ramblings of the S20:

It's going to be more comfortable sitting in longer. It has sort of a laid back seating arrangement like a long EZ. Trying not to make my mind up before flying it, but...I don't think I will really like it all that much for off-roading. It's going to be a bitch to mount-up in on big tires with no provision for a step. I do not like the visibility out of it at all sitting on the ground. You cannot see the tires on either side. The windshield is a LONG ways up there, too. Again, not use to it but it sure isn't a Cub or a 180 or a S7 for visibility. The rudder pedals are comfortable and well placed. The flap handle location is awesome! We are struggling with some sort of custom closure where the skylight meets the rear of the wing root. BIG gap there...big leak. Not good where we live. Of course, a passenger in the S7 gets a shower, too.

I think the landing gear is going to be fine. Not as tough as Roberts for the boulders but we don't do much of that anyway. I bet it will we a good deal faster than the S7. The tank vents on top of the wing are nice, shouldn't stink like the old ones do.

The baggage area is giant.

Again, without flying it, it's all BS still.

Thanks gb! I think there are quite a few of us on here that are actively following the progress and awaiting the reviews/comments you are posting. I will eventually get rid of most of my 'toys' and have one, nice and new plane. I am a long term planner and the S-20 is on my short list.

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GBFlyer: wrote:
Oh, and for everyone who always asks about how many hours to unpack, organize, and build...right at 1500. Yes, the old project manager kept a detailed track this time. The more experienced no doubt do it faster. Would also go quicker with more focus as this one dragged out over the calendar a little longer than we'd have wanted.

@ GBFlyer: What do you think of this statement off the Rans.com website ?

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http://www.rans.com/#!s-20-raven/c8ej
The S-20 Raven is a FAA approved 51% Kit -No welding required.
BUILD TIME: 500-700 HOURS
QUICK BUILD TIME: 250-350 HOURS

I don't doubt that an extremely competent and experienced team has done it. I think Joel Milloway does a full build with a lot of his mod's in something like 1000. For the average or slightly below average Joe's like my guys and I...no way. Of course we over think much of it and are probably unnecessarily fussy at times. And we tend to go overboard on the panel, against better judgement.[emoji12]. As I've said before, we fly over a lot of pretty damned cold water.

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GBFllyer wrote:

For the average or slightly below average Joe's like my guys and I...no way.

Exactly. I think the kit makers do somewhat of a disservice when they overhype the rapid assembly time of their kits. First time builders like me would fall into this alluring promise, buy the thing, and end up overwhelmed and never finishing it. Years ago on some other website that I can't recall, I wrote a thread titled something like "Thinking the Unthinkable; Not finishing your Kit" . I am the kind of guy who takes an hour and a half to watch the TV show "60 Minutes".

I'd like to see easier and broader "pre-assembly and preparation" of kits, and the FAA demonstrate a charitable approach to the 51% rule to allow the manufacturers full opportunity to make the kits truly buildable in say 250-500 hours. Ten years to taxi kits may satisfy the experienced purist builders who enjoy machining / carving their own props. However, for a person who is thinking of getting into aviation for the first time for recreational purposes via a home-build, 1500 hours may be a deal breaker.

I think a lot of us are knowledgeable and sufficiently handy to assemble these kits. It 's more of an issue that many of us can't spend hundreds and hundreds of hours in our garage banging rivets. I'd almost be happy to buy an 80% kit that slams together in 150 hours, and yeah, I'd sacrifice the ability to do the yearly EAB conditional inspections ( "annuals"), but I could do everything else. I'd still have the benefit of being able to do repairs, installing experimental avionics, non-TSO, non ASTM, etc hardware.

Anyway, thanks GBFlyer for your " insider's perspective " on the true build time on the Rans S20. I always suspected such.

Are you counting all the time involved wiring that panel? All the time spent on paint? Point being, the kit builder, Rans in this case, has no control over that. Also over how dyslexic or thimble thumbed, OR motivated a builder is (NOT talking you GB, more Mr. Never built a plane or for that matter built anything), so many variables. And, we talking time spent in the shop cogitating over the instructions, sweeping the shop, being, or actual productive work time. Rans is as accurate as possible in quoting build times, considering all these factors, no hype just lots of variables. That being said, you're damn right, ANY kitplane is a huge time sucking project, make no mistake. The guys with a family (young kids, old lady etc.) and a 9 to 5 job that still pull off a build really have my respect! Me, I can just hole up and get to work pretty much, my wife doesn't care she's 2500 miles away and the kid is grown. My last S-7S took me 750 he's WORK time, more if you count all of the above. If you think Rans is optimistic you are in for a real shock with many of the other kit suppliers! I'd venture to say they and Vans have the highest cometion rates due to the generally well thought out kits.

I love the way posting using my phone makes me look even more illiterate. Sorry about the jumbled grammer.

Cub Crafters has the best program I know of for quickly getting in the air. You go work there for a week stamping out ribs, etc., come back in a month and pick up the airplane you just built. It's $$$$$ but if you'd rather fly than build and have the means...

Yes, CG, I'm pretty sure he counted a good deal of the nut scratching time, wiring, etc.

Yes Denali, I agree it is a little misleading. Nothing against Rans, we like them obviously. [emoji4]

Gbflyer, I hate to snoop, but how are things going with the S-20?

I kept your comments in mind when I finally saw a Raven in person this weekend. I took a demo flight with Randy on Saturday at Sun'n Fun. Although I sucked at flying (like haunt my dreams sucked), I really liked the airplane. I was worried about the forward visibility for my kids as they get into their teen years, but Shelly sitting in there showed me about what they'd be seeing. Now I have to testify to the chairman of the house budget committee.


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