Hey everyone,

I have a scenario that I'd like to get some feedback on from those of you that are familiar with Smiley Creek. I know that there is a lot of good experience in our ranks, and want to see what you all have to say.

Last week a former student of mine ventured up to Smiley Creek for breakfast. When he emailed me about his departure, I literally cringed and couldn't believe what I was reading. Here are the details:

200 hr pilot
First time to SC by himself, second time ever.
1980 C182 w/Horton STOL Kit
4 adults putting him approximately 120# under gross
OAT 77-80 F
10-15 knots wind out of the south
1130 departure
After watching another 182 and a Husky depart to the south, he decided that is what he would do with a left turn to the north to gain altitude.

To me this raised a lot of red flags and I've expressed those to him in several emails since. Late departure, high DA, up-slope runway, rising terrain, high and heavy, headwind becoming tailwind when turning downwind, etc. In my opinion, he left himself little to no margin. In my opinion, he should have planned to be airborne and on his way home before the winds picked up and the temps started to climb...or be prepared to enjoy the day there. He commented to me that he wasn't ready for how much runway the takeoff required and that it was "a little scary". The whole time I was thinking "YEAH!"

So you tell me, am I over reacting? I know that takeoffs to the south aren't undo-able given the right plane, weight, wind, etc., but I'd sure have second thoughts about it. So, discuss amongst yourselves and let me know what you think.

Density altitude is not really an intuitive concept, and the lessons often have to be learned by doing. Ideally, that happens in a forgiving scenario/location like Smiley Creek, where the sinking feeling of a long takeoff roll and an anemic climb can be committed to memory without the terror of having to avoid significant terrain.

YIKES!!! But yeah, I think I'm allowed to chime in one this one

As you might know, I'm low time (around 200 hrs), 58 182/stock 470 with STOL wing cuffs and 850's all three points. And I'm a large person (no comments, ) Been to Smiley Creek 2 times.

My last trip to Smiley was back around Oct 2009 for breakfast with my two sisters (no offence, but on the plus size a little), myself (obviously) and about half tanks of fuel.

I had a very similiar situation, but winds were a little calmer from the south. No way was I going to take off to the south! I figured I had this big long runway to do a dwonwind take off just fine So, I did a rolling taxing turn around to take off to the north at the very most end of the runway with out getting into the weeds. Pulled two notches of flaps and full power when lined up with the runway. Half way down the runway, I was almost going abort take off. But then just past half way, 3 6 Delta rotated and continued a nice, but shallow climb. Not too much to worry about since the valley is big and long to the north.

The first thing I should have done was get into Smiley Creek earlier and out earlier (but not too easy with two girls that like to take a million pictures and spend a half hour in the small gift shop at the lodge).

The second is that It might have helped by getting a good ground roll on the runway without flaps deplode, then at close to rotation speed pull in the two notches of flaps.

Grassstrip..sometimes folks just have to find out things on their own. I watched a 172 depart downhill to the north several years ago at SC, middle of the day , no wind, two on board....I though he was going to drive to Stanley, through the fence. He took the whole runway and barely cleared the fence! Kinda like the 172 at JC this year. I can only hope these pilots look at the manual once in a while to have just a little idea of the advertised performance of their machine.
I too have departed SC uphill to the south but it was in the morning and my performance is much better than a 172, but even at that there is a point that one needs to make a decision to abort or continue the takeoff. I hope it scared him just a little so next time he needs to think "Do I really need to take this risk with my life and other lives". If I were you I would suggest that he really needs to do a little more studying and practice alone at high altitude AND high density altitude.
HC

Amen to the having to learn things by doing them yourselves. Heaven knows I've learned several lessons that way. But I know I've been saved some grief from learning from others too. I guess a part of me is a little irritated because I taught him better and we had talked specifically about SC...and the fact it was in my favorite aircraft ! The other part was that he seemed blissfully unaware of the core, underlying problems and was thinking that being on "grass" was the only issue (instead of the others listed above).

Thanks for the comments. My overall concern is for his and his passengers safety and to aid him in that learning process. I figured that you all would have some good stories/info to add, so thanks. Keep'em coming!

Been there several times camping. 8 to 9 AM depature to the north, downhill with a slight headwind and it has always been eazy. I think 8 to 10 Kts headwind balances out taking off up hill. I do not think the rising terrain is that bad. Most important is to know when to abort the takeoff.

I land down hill with a little tail wind all the time at my place cus I hate doing final over the highway. Sombody called 911 one time when I came in over the highway and reported that an airplane had just crashed. My landing are bad but not that bad.

Tim

I wonder if before this flight he has ever flown that same airplane at a high DA and near max allowable gross weight. When reading the post I immediately remembered myself taking off in a Cherokee 180...104 degrees F , full fuel and four adult men onboard. I was lucky it was a 4300 foot paved runway with a dropoff on the departure end. It was my home runway...Lexington, OR, and my first flight with more than two on board as well as probably the hottest temperature I had flown in. I didn't check the performance graphs available in the POH before taking off either.

That was a good lesson for me.

This also reminds me of when I lived just south of Sun River Oregon. Relatively high and hot in the summer. It seems every summer there is at least one 172 with two big boys and their golf clubs onboard that can't climb out of ground effect and ends up either in the river or on the golf course.

I've been to smiley creek several times, all but once in a 172 with 2 people on board and 1/2 tanks on takeoff. I always takeoff north, when I'm airborne I "buzz" the runway like a showoff at 10' agl untill I have about 90 mhp indicated, then start to climb, and sometimes go halfway to Stanley before I have enough altitude to turn west and head for caldwell. The one time I went there in a 150 when I was passing the parking area on takeoff I looked over and noticed that EVERYONE who was around the tiedown area was standing in a line in front of the planes watching to see if I had enough power to takeoff. I was actually airborn and climbing by the midpoint of the runway, but flew past Stanley before I had enough altitude to cross the sawtooths.

I did that once at smiley creek with fewer hours. I was a schmuck but I was a lucky schmuck. At least things like that really make you think before you do them again, bad experience is still experience.

I learned the same lesson at Jack pot NV. at 4:00 in the afternoon on a hot day, in a 1953 170B. I had all four seats full and I used most of the runway going to the south. I went down about 4 miles made a turn to head back toward Twin Falls, and passed over Jack Pot at about 500 feet above the place. I still remember the elevation of Jack Pot, 5217 ft. I think I decided then and there that I needed to get a little wiser on DA.

I have been the exact situation you describe at Smiley. 182 with Horton stol, 4 adults, 80-85 degrees, except the wind was a little more SW about 15 knots. It took forever to lift off due to the long soft grass, high DA, and heavy load. I got airborn just north of the buildings, and started to climb. I got about 200 ft agl by the end of the runway, and decied to raise the flaps. Just as I started to transition to climb cruise, I got hit with a down draft coming over that big hill SW of the runway. I started to lose altitude, and pulled the nose up until the stall horn started to beep. I held the nose as high as I could without sounding the buzzer, but continued to decend towards the highway below. I was now over the highway, but below the top of the small hill that is SE of the runway centerline, and couldn't turn to the left. The valley was raising up in front of me, and I seriously thought I was going to have to attempt to put it down on the highway. I could see the end to the hill on my left coming up, and started a gradual turn. By the time I got to the end of the hill I flew out of the down draft, and was able to start to climb. I was able to increase my bank to avoid rising terain in front of me, and finaly was able to turn to the north to climb.

There was a moment when Later that night around the campfire somebody made the remark, "Did you see that 182 that took off to the south today?" "He dissapeared for a while behind the hill, and we weren't sure he was going to make it."

I said, "Yea, I saw him...what an idiot." "I bet he doesn't try that again!"

DEGJR

Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions. Unknown

Learn from the mistakes of others. You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself.
Eleanor Roosevelt




Good day

DEGR,

One of the primary rules for sailplane pilots is you speed up in sink and slow down in lift. The idea is to get out of the sink as quickly as pracitcable while lingering in lift to take advantage of it. This is sort of counter intuitive to power pilots, as it's nose up to climb - - normally. But not in the situation you describe. Instead of staggering along at MCA with the stall warning almost blaring, a better course would be to lower the nose and speed up a bit, within terrain constraints of course. This sometimes takes balls, as you point the nose down with terrain nearby, but in the end you'll lose LESS altitude by giving a little away for the extra speed to get the hell out of the sink.

Thanks guys. Good to hear other's experiences. I have a pretty good feel for his flying and he has ran into some higher DAs, but not this high and this heavy on grass. He wants to go up and do his Flight Review with me up there, which I think is a good idea (not to mention an excuse to go play).

I looked at the AFM and it noted that for every 9 knots of headwind, the ground roll decreases 10%, and for dry grass runways, the ground roll is increased by 15%. Of course it doesn't account for slope. I have one of those slide computers that will account for all of the above. When I get home, I will run it through it and see what it says just to satisfy my curiosity.

You know you're in test pilot territory when you go past the well worn dirt area, past the less worn dry grass area, past the mowed area and finally rotate just as you cause a blizzard of timothy seeds in the 4' tall stuff.

all i've read here are right. one thing about smiley, kind of like jc, it looks too easy...

it is a high airport with later departures questionable as to the heat and such...

the uphill part really makes it tough, expecially with a full load like that....guess i know now

why my back seat is almost always out...! i think his best plan of attack for the future would be to spend a day with you in the back-country...with your experience corey, he'll learn a ton as to weight,fuel load and etc...probably save his neck one day...

I have flown into Smiley Creek several times in the summer for over 30 years. I have seen some real bonehead moves up there and many near crashes. If the wind is 15kts or less I always take off to the north. Downhill runway and it is downhill all the way to Stanley. One other nice thing is if you aren't off by the time you get to the windsock on the north end there is plenty of length left to abort. If the wind is over 20kts from the south you have to have a very good reason to want to go somewhere. I came in there from Twin one late afternoon when the wind was 20-25 out of the south and the turbulence was tremendous from the Galena summit all the way to touchdown. I would not have wanted to take off in those conditions. One of these days I'll do a write up on the Vareeze that was in there a couple years ago. I'll be up there this weekend in the Cub for the QB fly in, any QBs are welcome. Don

Grass strip:

Might be a good time to suggest Sparky Imeson's book: Taildragger Tactics and Mountain Flying to your friend. One of the things that I like about Sparky is that he lays out lots of "Rules of Thumb" that are easy to remember and very understandable.

He lays out a rule about takeoff that is something like 70% of takeoff speed by 1/2 of runway.

He also talks about density altitude, how to react to it, etc. Now that your friend has been baptized, might be a good time to give him some resources that will help him be better prepared. Also might be a good time to suggest that he consider flying with someone that knows his plane and is capable of teaching him what his limits are and how to expand them

Regards, Larry

One of the biggest problems with Smiley Creek is that it is the perfect setup for hard lessons in D.A. Very high altitude airport, wide open approaches, slight uphill to the south, and it can get hot. Bottom line is that it really looks benign to most pilots.

And, it IS a very nice airport, but at 7100 feet msl, it doesn't take many degrees above standard temp before Smiley Creek can become a real challenge for all but the highest performance airplanes.

I think you're doing exactly the right thing--nag him a bit, then go fly with him. But, don't let him "get away scot free".

One thing that many pilots don't consider is Kenny Rogers' admonitions in his song "The Gambler": "You've got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, and know when to walk away". Many pilots fail to even consider the third option: Go get a cup of coffee, take a hike, etc, till the D.A. is down again in the evening. Sometimes saying no is REALLY hard, and I can think of a number of flights where I should have chosen that path but didn't. I learned from those experiences, which is good, but I still look back on a few with trepidation.

One other thing: The fact that he called you to discuss may suggest that this episode really did get his attention a bit more than might be apparent. If so, that's good, and getting him some more dual with D.A. is a great opportunity.

Good for you for being a helpful MENTOR to a fairly new aviator. We need more like you.

MTV

88H wrote: Sparky Imeson's book: Taildragger Tactics and Mountain Flying to your friend.

Quick question. Is there much difference in material between the two books? I have the Mountain Flying Bible and often consider getting Taildragger Tactics, but when I've gotten books from the same author/source in the past it seems like there is typically the same information in a different format with very little new material. Are Sparky's books similar or is there plenty of different information between the books?