How SuperCubs, or any Cub, is worth what people are asking???
A cloth covered airplane that can barely haul the "Basics", and isn't fuel efficient, can attempt to fetch the prices they do?
Not a trick question…. but merely a question.
I have a 185 that does" just" about everything a Cub does, plus a "Whole" bunch more, for the same price (and in many cases, a bunch less).
I'm confused???

BTW, my machine might be "For Sale".

Fraser…. "SkyTruck"

IMO it is much like the Harley Davidson craz of 90s and early 2000s. Bikes with MSRPs of 25k selling for 30K. Mild custom jobs for 40-50K.

It is the good ol capitalist system. What ever the market will bare.

I know the Harley factory encouraged dealers not to gouge the customer. It was their belief that short term profits don't equal long term happy customers.

When it comes to long term happy customers I think some of the Cub builders are not helping their cause by taking advantage of their customers. Time will tell.

I would take a 4 place 6 cylinder engine over a 2 place if I could only have 1 plane. If money were no object......who wouldn't want a Super Cub?

G'Day

SkyTruck wrote:How SuperCubs, or any Cub, is worth what people are asking???

(I agree! No possible reason exists!! Just buy a Maule!! )

I have a 185 that does" just" about everything a Cub does

Fraser…. "SkyTruck"

Fraser, It's that just about that makes the big difference!!
Myself I can't put a dam cub on so I always used a Maule
Had 3 185 workhorses at one time and they are great trucks!!
Had 4 206's at the same time, again great trucks, I don't think there are any made better!!
You can take the very best 185 pilot and he can almost get a 185 into and out of MOST places a cub will go, but just about any one can land a Cub where 90% of the 185 drives can't land!!
MHO and you know what that's worth!!

Wipe a gear off of a cub and you can have it flying by Monday if you have a good mechanic, do that in a 185 and it will take you that long just to see what you have to order!!

The prices sicken me as much as anyone, but I think about it like this:

How much would you charge someone to build them a NEW Cub that was super nicely finished, backed by a warranty and a bunch of refinement engineering work that is all certified, and then have to pay the liability insurance and bills/wage/benefits for a staff of 15+ people and a facility at an airport? Your price point would probably depend on the number of units going out the door, and how fast you can produce them. The cost is surprisingly high, and the take-home is whatever you can mark it up.

I'm not patronizing anyone here, because this is pretty obvious. I think the utility or value of a recreational aircraft has much more to do with emotion and disposable income than any pragmatic buyer decision-making.

As for old Cubs demanding premium? I think before the experimental Cub market really took off, there was a finite amount of serial numbers available. A single guy rebuilds one and really values his time and efforts, and prices it accordingly. Someone pays what he asks and a precedent/market is set for value. Prior to 2008 that was going well, now the market for Cubs and their descendants is saturated.

I dunno, I could go on and on. Unless you're a charter or guide outfit or something, you're probably evaluating the purchase with emotion rather than utility/useful load in mind,.

Again, it's not a trick question.
I can haul camping gear into Dewey Moore with the 185, and a bottle of water and a Granola Bar with a Cub.
Whether a good argument or bad, I'd just like to hear a good argument.
Why do the Super Cubs, Pa-12's with mods, fetch such a high price.
They use just as much fuel as my 185 considering distance traveled.

It might not be a trick question, but the answer has more to it than just comparison of utility. There's no practical argument other than it's fun because it's like riding a motorcycle or paddling a kayak vs a "skytruck."

I'd say Cubs are one of the easiest, most forgiving taildraggers to fly too, so that might weigh into it. A heavy 185 is intimidating for many pilots (me included.)

There's a wrench for every nut out there. Mine, all things being equal, would probably be a Caravan and somebody else's credit card.

I'm trying to justify getting rid of the 185 and replacing it with a "Cub" type plane.
It's tough giving up the "Utility".
"Experimental", has it's advantages, but "Certified" is where I'd like to be. Old School "tried and true" dependability means a bunch to me.
Thanks everybody for your input.

SkyTruck wrote:Again, it's not a trick question.
I can haul camping gear into Dewey Moore with the 185, and a bottle of water and a Granola Bar with a Cub.
Whether a good argument or bad, I'd just like to hear a good argument.
Why do the Super Cubs, Pa-12's with mods, fetch such a high price.
They use just as much fuel as my 185 considering distance traveled.

No argument!!
If you are just going into places like that just keep the 185, and you can take 2 along with the kitchen sink and that guy with the granola bar will be over for dinner and breakfast!! Just make sure he hauls the whiskey!!
No comparison!!

The Carbon Cub is a 1320 MTOW (400 useful), 100 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $175,000
The Highlander SS is a 1320 MTOW (450 useful), 110 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $100,00 - that will totally embarrass the CC in performance
The Highlander is a 1320 MTOW (500 useful), 100 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $80,000
The Kitfox SS is a 1320 MTOW (500 useful), 120 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $75,000 ($89,000 SLSA)
The Kitfox IV is a 1200 MTOW (500 useful), 110 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $40,000
The Avid Mk IV is a 1200 MTOW (500 useful), 90 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $30,000


Food for thought.

I think it all depends on mission, and how far you want to go/how often, and of course how deep your pockets are. Anyone that really likes to fly, could probly sneak by with 4 planes to do most of what they enjoy, in style. But, if your pockets aren't that deep, then you ya need to decide what you are willing to compromise.

I had a pretty well modded 180, good performer, good speed.I was very interested in the light sport cub type planes. Didn't think speed was that important as I usually flew powered back. But, I did have the option to go faster and travel greater distances and I missed that with my cub.

If money were no object I would do another 180 like I had. In hind sight, I feel that was the best compromise for my mission.

Now I'm moddin up a 170. It will get off shorter light and land shorter than the 180. Lot better speed that the cub, little slower than the 180, but haul everything I want, and more responsive than my old 180.

That's the compromise for me.

Mark, I would suggest spending some time in a cub. If you still want to go to Idaho, fly to Idaho and see how ya like sittin in that seat for 8 hours. Probly fun the first time, But you might find ya only want to do that trip once a year.

Gary

182 Strait Tail--I can get one big guy (250), lots of gear, full tanks and still have room for Tipsey


How many border collies can you put in a super cub?

Tim

all good points for sure... a ton of my friends/customers up here have HUSKY/cubs...lots of big dollar ones too....yeah a new HUSKY for 225-300 K...!? wow, they are cool little birds, but intersting that these guys somehow also manage to have more birds than that one...like rob said, if $ were no object!...Im more like u guys with multi-purpose uses for the 182. no back seat and 40 gallons all the Franks strips but 2...not that im that great, but the plane is way capable if loaded right. i've spent enough time with the right instructors to understand how capable the high-wing cessnas really are...i do like the small stuff, but not sure how to afford/justify another plane...and i really dont want to giveashit what it all weighs...i like delivering new dirt-bikes to mccall in the 182...one time did 2 crf230's and a bunch of gear...i dunno i like stuff that works...to me a supercub or husky seems like a lot of fun, but not real friendly / comfortable for long daze...if i had no prob with the $, im sure i would end up with a king katmai 182 for sure...but like i always say..." u can have kids or $, take your choice!"...i'll take the kids for sure and my lowly beater 182 for now!...my kids are all older now, but seem to somehow stay on the payroll....!

Av8r3400 wrote:The Carbon Cub is a 1320 MTOW (400 useful), 100 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $175,000
The Highlander SS is a 1320 MTOW (450 useful), 110 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $100,00 - that will totally embarrass the CC in performance
The Highlander is a 1320 MTOW (500 useful), 100 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $80,000
The Kitfox SS is a 1320 MTOW (500 useful), 120 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $75,000 ($89,000 SLSA)
The Kitfox IV is a 1200 MTOW (500 useful), 110 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $40,000
The Avid Mk IV is a 1200 MTOW (500 useful), 90 mph, light sport, two seat plane. $30,000


Food for thought.

1966 C180H 3190 MTOW (1500 useful). 150 mph 6 seat. Paid under $80. (and a mod or two)

That's me, my dog, 5.5 hrs of fuel, and the entire Carbon Cub kit stuffed inside.

Just sayin-

SkyTruck wrote:How SuperCubs, or any Cub, is worth what people are asking???

A new 172 costs about $400,000 today. A new 182 costs about $600,00, If Cessna still made the 185 it might cost $700,000.

New top of the line SuperCub about $230,000.

Skywagon
My 40 year old Skywagon with nearly 7,000 hrs TT and a 0 time 330hp IO-520D Lycon rebuild cost me $125,000 last year. I've since put about $60,000 into making her mine, lot's of STC's, including Bushwheels, and a complete interior refurb. TT doesn't scare me on this plane, it was extremely well maintained and has no corrosion nor damage history. Useful load is somewhere around 1,400+ pounds. Cruise speed with the 29's is 145 mph @ 12 gph, 140 mph @ 10 gph. The other day I was flying with ATXCitab and to stay with him I flew with 10 degrees of flaps around 100 mph. Playing with LOP I got her to 4 gph and she was still running smooth (This is best guess because the fuel flow meter was pegged on the bottom, which is 4 gph indicated).

I use her for exactly why I bought her, to fly around the country, business, family, vacations - golf for my wife, hunting and fishing for me. She goes into/out of all the backcountry strips I've asked of her easily. She's powerful, loud, and relatively fast.

I will do one more mod in 2014, adding altitude hold to the auto-pilot.

I was planning on two additional mods, both to make her more "cub like":
1. RSTOL
2. Mac 86/88" 3-blade.

SuperCub
My new SuperCub, a Mackey SQ-2, was built in 2010, I bought her this summer for almost $200,000. About 320 hrs TT. 205+hp O-375 Aerosport. Useful load is almost 1,200 pounds. She weighs just a little over 1,000 pounds so my 185 could carry her, plus me, plus some fuel. Cruise speed with the 35's is 90 mph @ 10 gph - she doesn't like LOP at all.

I bought her to explore rivers to fly-fish like never before, landing on bars not much longer then her length. During two days of pre-buy flying her I fell in love with what she is best at, "Trials Flying" for lack of a better phrase.

Thoughts
I no longer plan on making my 185 more "Cub Like". In fact, it is very possible I'll go back to 26's to get back the 15 mph I lost going to 29's. Back to 160-165 mph cruise speed.

If I could only have one, without hesitation it would be the 185. Supports my overall mission much better.

Certified or Experimental?
My Mackey SQ-2 was built to an even higher standard then my 185. So as long as the builder (assuming it is not you) does superb quality work I would not hesitate for a moment choosing an Experimental - and didn't.

Do what's best for your mission and what makes you smile most.

Barnstormer wrote:In fact, it is very possible I'll go back to 26's to get back the 15 mph I lost going to 29's. Back to 160-165 mph cruise speed.

Then how are we going to fly together?!

I'm excited to go out on missions with the SQ-2 . Our cruise speeds will probably be identical once I get some 26's on the Citab.

SkyTruck wrote:How SuperCubs, or any Cub, is worth what people are asking???
A cloth covered airplane that can barely haul the "Basics", and isn't fuel efficient, can attempt to fetch the prices they do?

Any plane is worth more than it's "parts". The value of anything is directly related to it's demand. My cub fits my mission perfectly, but it also fits lots of other pilots' mission too, so we compete for the available cubs (or whatever plane) with our $$.
When full of camping gear, full fuel +15 gals, I lift off the water in 10 secs, cruise @ 6 (mogas) gals/hr. It doesn't break the sound barrier, nor is it a "SkyTruck" but economically hauls the basics just fine for me.

SkyTruck wrote:How SuperCubs, or any Cub, is worth what people are asking???
A cloth covered airplane that can barely haul the "Basics", and isn't fuel efficient, can attempt to fetch the prices they do?
Not a trick question…. but merely a question.
I have a 185 that does" just" about everything a Cub does, plus a "Whole" bunch more, for the same price (and in many cases, a bunch less).
I'm confused???

BTW, my machine might be "For Sale".

Fraser…. "SkyTruck"

Most of them aren't worth what they're asking. The expensive ones will be on the market forever, as will expensive Cessnas or Maules. I don't know what they sell for but I'd wager it's a long ways from the ask.

Had them all and you are right, super cubs are as expensive to operate as anything else. As one fellow said, super cubs are great for landing and taking off. That's where it ends.

We've got a 180 and a Super Cub, they have about the same amount of $$$ in them. The cub is 95% new parts with an almost 64 year old data plate, the 180 has also been rebuilt throughout the years and firewall forward is all new. Comparing the two is not really valid, they are two very different planes.

For working around the ranch the 180 can't come close to operating the way the cub does, for cross country and certain types of faster fun flying the cub can't compete with the 180 by any stretch. Cross country the 180 is much more economical. I often fly a 326 sm XC, the 180 burns avg 26 gallons in 2.5 hours and the cub burns 32 in 4 hours (old 0-290 motor dunno what the 160hp 0-320 does XC yet). If I had to choose between the two the 180 makes the most sense for my mission. If I was flying only for working around the ranch and for fun the Cub wins hands down. The fun factor of the super cub is incredible, until we got the cub I totally didnt "get it." Apparently, if a cub doesn't "measure out right" it will not fly amazing, which can blur people's opinions as to their merit depending what they have flown etc.

The cubs that go for 6 figures plus are mostly brand new airplanes with old data plates, not sure why that doesn't make sense? What new airplane thats worth its weight doesn't go for big money? There are "cheap" 180/185 and super cubs on the market, almost all of them have skeletons in the closet and parts are crazy expensive sometimes. A $50,000 180 can turn into a $80-100K bird in a heartbeat if u want to make it right and tight.

I am not an expert on anything, this is just my observation from owning/maintaining/flying both types.

Skytruck,

What do you want for that 185? They ain't exactly a cheap plane either...