.

I grew up around an Ag operation. Shut down prior to me flying them.

So grandpa's 2cents.
Cessnas supposedly start to have landing gear issues if your hauling full loads.
I know 2 guys who have Cats. The one with the "B" is happier due to visibility with the top wing. Also you might find a Cat which has enough fuel capacity for your area.

Good Luck

I've flown and operated Both,2500+ hrs Ag Cat & 800 or so hrs. AgWagon/Truck .If your doing short fields with lots of turns -AgCat hands down 3-4 to1. If your working the flatland's of Kansas and few turns for economy -Ag Wagon.The amount sprayed per application (per acre)load is paramount. I've spent many a day and night to the drone of the P&W 985 mounted to the forward edge of the AGCat. The Agwagon is for the gentleman farmer who wants to do his and neighbors fields . Both are good airplanes but have limitations. Lots of AgCats have turned Turbine and muster on .

182 STOL driver wrote:I've flown and operated Both,2500+ hrs Ag Cat & 800 or so hrs. AgWagon/Truck .If your doing short fields with lots of turns -AgCat hands down 3-4 to1. If your working the flatland's of Kansas and few turns for economy -Ag Wagon.The amount sprayed per application (per acre)load is paramount. I've spent many a day and night to the drone of the P&W 985 mounted to the forward edge of the AGCat. The Agwagon is for the gentleman farmer who wants to do his and neighbors fields . Both are good airplanes but have limitations. Lots of AgCats have turned Turbine and muster on .

X2 the agcat will also be better in case of a accident, I flew ag planes for 25yrs 182 STOL driver is right on.

I've worked with a few ag pilots that have mentioned that the visibility of the Ag Cat is pretty crappy in the turns and that the Ag trucks are one of the better handling ag planes out there.

I would go with the Ag Truck.

Also, have a look at the NTSB reports and peruse the ag aircraft accidents/incidents. It seems like the Ag Cats have a high number of engine failures. I wonder if the quality of the overhauled parts/engines are not that great anymore?

Describe your operating environment more specifically;

Runway length

Average ferry distance

Average field size and obstacles

Most common total volume per acre

Your knowledge level of either flat or radial engines

With those questions answered I can better tell you what my opinion would be of which you should select.

This very question hashed over a few times at www.sprayplane.org

Also, may I ask what experience you have around, or doing, this to be able to take on the management as well as the flying of an aerial application business? If you are embarking on this cold turkey who will mentor and guide you initially?

Lowflyin'G3:
Runway is a paved 3200' by 60' elevation 1,983 ft
1-15 miles ferry distance.
average field size is 150-320 acres with power lines, trees, stuff like that
The guy here usually puts about 2-3 gpa average depending on the chemical
I have more knowledge of flat engines than round ones. never had experience with round ones but do with flat (I'm no mechanic or anything though)

I loaded for an owner/operator in the past and have two experienced owner/operators in the area that want to see me get into the business. One has mentored pilots in the past, not sure about the other one. I know it's not ideal at all to have to buy my own plane but they run all turbines so I don't have a choice. Also, do you think air tractor 301/401, or callair a-9 would be better for whatever reason?

Thanks everyone for the great replys so far

My Dad started with a Cub, then a Quail with 290 hp, then 600 hp Thrush and then ended with a 235 Pawnee with the Hutch wing. The Pawnee made money in the smaller fields of NW Missouri.

In my opinion;

If you are running off of more than 3k at less than 2k, going to quarter and half sections putting out 2 and 3 gal, and have some flat engine experience but no radial experience, and will have someone to guide you closely for the first 200 hours I'm going to say Ag Truck.
The Cat will give you a little more stall friendliness and crashworthiness but I don't think that it's necessary for any part of this operating environment. 1,500' to 2,500' strips, yes. A bunch of 7 to 40 acre fields, yes. But you are not describing that.

As one who has just gotten out of two 600 Cats and grew up around 450's I can tell you that they are a wonderful airplane and given the right operating environment they really shine. Stout as a tank and a great airplane to break into. I broke two pilots in in the last 4 years in my Ag-Cats and they worked just great for that. BUT the current situation on a radial engine's decreasing reliability and an increase in fuel prices make the Cat a bit hard to pencil at times.

I broke into this biz in an Ag Truck but I had a fairly diverse aviation background already. You have to realize that you will need to be on top of energy management with that fast Cessna wing. It is a great airplane as well, just keep it moving. With those big fields you shouldn't have a problem with that. I broke in in the Northeast Mississippi hill country spraying odd shaped 14 acre cotton patches in the bottom of various hollow's. Makes you pay attention.
I think that you will be happier burning 17-18 gallons an hour rather than 27-30 in a 450 Cat or as much as 40 in a 600 Cat. The reliability of a flat motor you will also find better than the radial. I had two 1340's quit in my last year running them. I feel like we younger guys just don't have the patience to care for them as the older guys did when trying to work. Trying to push them to turn a profit with $5+ dollar fuel doesn't help that either. I'd be happy to have one on a T-6 that I babied for 50 hours a year flying in calm evenings but trying to work the snot out of one for 500 hours or so in hot weather is entirely another thing where longevity is concerned.

The Cessna over the Pawnee or Brave does not have a wing AD or spar cap changeto deal with as well.

If you can afford it find a 550 powered Truck. Either way a 520 powered Wagon or Truck will be fine. You will need to limit your load for the first while. Maybe 75 gallons for 5 hours then 100 gallons max for another 25 hours, then 150 gallons for another 50 hours, then maybe 175 max for the rest of the season. That'll keep you from being teeth and bones in the bottom of a smoking hole. You can pull them out of the turn if you have your head up your ass when heavy and hot. After you get the feel for it you might pull 200 gallons most of the day to most fields, even 235 first thing in the morning going to the right field with long runs doing 3 or 5 gallon work with light fuel. They will do it, just take your time.
I highly recommend VG's, STOL kit, and Ag-Tips winglets to help that thin little wing work. If you buy one that has none of those at least put the VG's on yourself. Make sure you have all of the wire strike gear in place, some of them have lost some pieces over the years. You may have to do some searching, helps keep your head on.

I wrote this a few years back for someone wanting to do the same as you, maybe it will help you too.

Real world costs are a hit and miss thing based on what you bought to start with. Keep in mind that I haven't flown a Cessna in about seven years and never owned one but we'll ball park some numbers for you so you have a starting point. If an actual Cessna operator post up with their numbers go with them. I'll "worst case scenario" it for you though.
Couple of points to start with, money wise;

Purchase of airplane - $50-80,000 so 20% down is @ $15,000 w/ $900/mo note for 7 years, +or-
PLUS sales tax for your state. Maybe 7% @ $4,000

Insurance - probably gonna be around $8-10,000/yr until you get some time insuring for $80k on hull
AND you'll have to pay around $500 per operator you work with to cross-insure and that's IF you both have the same underwriter. It can be more if they are different.

Liquid cash - going into this thing you should have another $10,000 liquid cash in start up capital for training fuel, hotels, meals and minor maintenance issues. Remember that everything on an airplane costs $1,000 period. Also if you have an accident you'll need to pay your deductible so it's nice to have that ready.

Operating line of credit - To insure your success you should have an operating loan established for around $50,000 in the event of a major mishap like the engine making metal or hitting something with a wing, prop strike, etc. All that shit will cost between $15,000 to $30,000 and all the while the plane is down not making money you'll be making payments and feeding yourself.

Bottom line is you should have around $40,000 CASH right now and an operating line for another $40,000 - $50K set up BEFORE you go buy anything.
You will most likely use every bit of the cash getting going but if everything goes right you won't need much of the operating line. BUT it's nice to have to ensure your success.

NOW hourly costs - with 17 to 18 gallons an hour fuel burn.
Around $125.00 to $150.00 an hour with you paying for fuel and NO pay for you. This is dividing your fixed yearly costs into about 200 hours, paying for your hourly overhaul expenses for engine, prop and paying for all of the "little" miscellaneous airframe and/or spray system parts. GPS fixes, software upgrades, spare nozzles and check valves, pump seals, landing lights, oil changes, brake pads, tires, gate seals, rod ends, load hose fittings, air filters, windshield cleaner, rags, push to talk switches, radio work, 100 hour inspections, etc.

Production rates -
Things to take into consideration would be your need to EASE into this thing.
I'm gonna say CONSERVATIVELY starting out (first 50 hours) in unfamiliar country you shouldn't be flying more than three hours a day. Then no more than six hours a day for your first season after you get familiar with the area and comfotable with the plane.
It is reasonable to think that you could haul 120 -150 gallon loads to start with so at 2 gallon work you'll be hauling 60-75 acre loads (of course if your operator is doing three gallon work this will cut your hourly gross greatly). Depending on the field size and ferry distance you could probably do about 1.3 loads an hour so around 90 acres an hour.
Don't really know what people are charging where you are thinking about going but let's ball park.
You would be around 55%-60% of gross with the plane, they pay for fuel. Say $8.00 an acre, you'd get around $4.40 an acre. $4.40 x 90 = @ $400/hr gross for you about $750-775 total gross. Less per hour production would be less for you, less per acre cost would be less for you. The important thing starting out is that you will need to discipline yourself to not get focused on hourly production for a season and just stay alive and learn how to do clean work. That is hard when you have payments to make!

NOW let's look at from the "whole picture" perspective.

Fixed costs per year - insurance, annual, payment @ $26,000 / $400/hr = @ 60 hours NOT including what it costs to fly those 60 hours.

Other first year start up costs - @ $20,000 = another 50 hours

Food money for you - @ $30,000 = another 65 hours

Costs to fly those 175 hours - ballpark another 50 hours

Total about 220 hours or about 20,000 acres @ 90 acres an hour.

That is to pay for everything AND pay yourself something.
Remember that after a bit of taxes this is Ramen Noodle country on the remaining cash after you make a pickup payment and other various life expenses.

Other thoughts on this - right now the credit market is fairly tight and you'll be putting down at least 20% on the value of the plane and they aren't wanting to give out operating loans on new businesses so you'll either have to have some "stuff" to secure the loan with or a real rich daddy to co-sign for you and put their shit up for you.
You'll need to have fairly good (680 or better score) credit to secure the loan on the airplane. But they will usually use the aircraft itself to secure it.
The main problem being that it is a work airplane and the bank views that differently than a play airplane. It seems backwards to me but I'll give you an example.
My "play" plane bought with 10% down on a 20, yes 20, year note at around 6.9% fixed rate. It's like they're giving them away!
My "work" planes are 20% down on a ten year (and I had to really push them to do that, normally not more than 7 years) variable rate note WITH a life insurance policy to back it up (life insurance on ag pilots is about $170-$200 a month for $300,000-$500,000 policy).
You will also be looked at as a start up business and with no "sure income" it'll be a stretch for them to write you so focus on SBA loans. A real pain in the ass and more expensive but may be your only option in this case.
Last thought is that you will probably have about $4,000 in business start up costs. Accountant, Lawyer, etc. You'll need to start an LLC. probably and get set up with a workmens compensation policy even if you do like most of us and waive your right to coverage (make sure you have medical insurance that covers you IN THE AIRPLANE if you do this, I don't want to pay for your medical bills if you have an acident) you still need a policy and that'll cost a few hundred bucks. Most operators will require you to provide a copy to them prior to subbing to them. Make sure you do this for a liability stand point. They may still sue you if you go through a school bus full of kids but it'll buffer your personal assests if you use a corporation to work through.
There is more to this than I think you are thinking. Not insurmountable by any means but "buying an airplane and going to work" has more to it. You can do it with a little less but I think you will succeed if you prepare like this.
You haven't even asked about ground equipment or hiring an employee for later, that's a whole other pain!
Another side note is that ten to fifteen years ago Cessna's were flown on boll wevill contracts for $320-$350 an hour flat rate GROSS. That included fixed costs, hourly operating costs, fuel and pilot pay. Many guys made money at that but it was a lot of hours to divide your fixed costs into, like 350-500 for a season. I don't think with what fuel is and what airplane parts cost you could do that any more. Probably $400 minimum. More if you were only going to fly 200-250 hours.

G3: I was actually going to ask about VG's so thanks for covering that! Any particular brand you recomend for the VG's, STOL kits ect? Your second post with all the numbers makes me feel pretty bleak about breaking into the flying part of this business this way. Hopefully I can find a better way. Lastly, what is a reasonable airframe time for a 188? Any spacific things/issues I should be looking for when looking at one (example of what I mean would be like the wood spar on my citabria I had to be weary of). Btw, Your info and the rest of the info in this thread so far has helped me more than you know. I really appreciate it!

Yeah, well like I said in the post to the other guy it isn't as easy as it sounds to "go buy an airplane and start spraying". I figured that would wake you up to more of the realities of this thing than which airplane do I want. The other hurdles will be much more difficult than selecting an airplane to fly.
The first thing you need to do is go and figure out what your financial situation is. Basically this will be like buying and operating a 185 amphib with waaaay more expensive insurance. I'm sure it's not for no reason that you don't have a 185 amphib now. Do you have the credit ability and cash on hand to do that and can you make that commitment for the life of a 5-7 year loan while relying on someone else's customer base?
Which brings us to question number two. You need to sit down with dude A and dude B and see which one is willing to make a commitment to you to run your airplane and break you in. In a SERIOUS, like on paper, fashion so that you can get going with a bank. The numbers are above, so that's what you need to ask. WILL THEY PROVIDE 20,000 acres just for you? What will happen if there is a drought that puts total volume sprayed down and they have those expensive turbines to pay for? Will you be left out in the cold or will they guarantee you the 20k acres regardless so you won't starve. If they WON'T guarantee it and you still have a payment what would your plan B be? Where else can you go to work the plane with a mellow operator that will also help you in during your first hours and not throw you to the wolves with complex wired up fields surrounded by houses in the confusion of a daylight 'til dark 40 day season running multiple airplanes when they either make it or break it?
Have you passed a state pesticide applicator license test yet for your state and the one you may have to go to to work if you are let down there?
Figure out all of that and then we'll talk VG's and STOL kits and airframes. Because all of that will be wasted breath on my part if you can't carry through with it.
And get going real soon because February is the day after tomorrow. It will be time to spray in 4 months and you should have a plane by then so that you can get some training in to learn the GPS/lightbar, learn the spray system and calibration of it, and get a general feel for the plane (like 10-20 hours with light loads of water under supervision) BEFORE it is time to haul a load and the operator is too busy flying his own plane or handing out work orders to the other experienced pilots to go sit next to a field and talk to you on radio. Banks work slow, pre-buys are slow, getting VFR aircraft ferried potentially long distances can take time depending on weather, and it takes a couple of weeks to tweak an ag plane once you get it so that it's where you need it. You'd best have a sense of urgency at this point if you are going to be ready to go this coming season and not just be wandering aimlessly into walls in the dark.
Get out a piece of paper, prioritize your issues (what VG's you need is waaaaaaaay at the bottom!), make a plan WITH a timeline for each goal, and get going.
Number 1 - meet with potential break-in operators to discuss the options for a deal, NOW.
Number 2 - Acquire study guides for pesticide applicator test(s) and start studying with a test date of around April 1.
You don't want to go to all of this trouble to put this thing together and finally haul your 15th hour of water and be ready to put out your first revenue load on August 31st. Winter in our business can be reeeeeeal long when the bank account is low on September 1!

G3 has awesome advise that applies to most any business. The steps he outlines are the missed steps that make most startups fail. Good stuff G3!!

Ya I'm re-prioritizing as we speak. I'm going to see if they know any that I can rent or whatever instead of buying. I was confused on one thing though. You said something about a 40 day, dawn till dusk working days. Here in ND the spray season (depending on the year) is beginning/middle of may until end of august so the 40 day comment confused me a little. Not at all trying to be a smart a** just confused.

Sure the total length of the season is that long but we all have a 30 or so day period where we make it or break it unless we are in Arizona or California or Florida and work basically year-round. Even then they have "pushes". Most northern seats though will have a 30-45 day do or die period that makes it happen for the operator and all involved for that matter.
I'll do a little fertilizer in February, maybe two or three jobs in March, maybe 4,000 acres in April, maybe 8,000 acres in May, more in June, then it explodes to where I do just over 1/3 of my total gross for the year in 31 days of July, then backing off in August, backing off further in September, and finishing sometime in October.
But if we screw something up in July we might not make it. That is what I was referring to. That is the time that an operator doesn't have to mess with a new guy if he runs more than one airplane and possibly flies himself. Get in early, get your practice in with his supervision before July 1 on some couple-load days and get proficient before the big push comes.

Very good G3. I highly recommend finding a seat ANYWHERE you can first. Unless your highly confident and knowledgeable in all aspects of the business. And like he said, unless you have. Guarantee on some acreage, you better have some deep pockets to sustain while trying to get some work. Farmers aren't going to jump at a new pilot starting a new business. To risky for them. At planes are the only planes not down in the market now to. Due to the corn run. You could buy a nice cessna just 3-4 years ago for 50-60k. Now there over a 100 all day long. 301's you could pick up under a 100 to. Not anymore. Find a sucker like I did to break you in. if you flew for free the first year you'd probably make more $ than what your looking at unless you have a serious commitment and serious support. Not trying to be negative. Just worthless advice trying to save you some grief. Good luck either way. Seriously wish you success either way! My one piece of advice, don't pull to hard

True dat.

That's kinda what I thought you meant but wasn't sure. All great advice, thanks for the support!

lowlevelops says his dad makes more money with that new John Deere ground - rig than he does with his Air Tractor (maybe that will get ol' T out of hiding). Must be true cause he still hasn't called me to come drive it.