Am thinking of buying a tail wheel plane in the 25,000 bracket for a starter. Want to get the endorsment and build time so that when I get a more expencive one I can afford the Insurance. Champ, Pacer, Colt, etc.

What are the feelings of the best for this purpose. Have 100 ft of grass so that would be a consideration.

Thanks

qmdv wrote: Have 100 ft of grass so that would be a consideration.

Thanks

I think you're looking at a helicopter in that case

Meant to say 1100 ft of grass

Tim

For 25K you could get a very nice stock (C-85 powered) Cessna 140. With a stock 140 the problem is the 1100' of grass. Landings are not remotely a problem, but on takeoff my C-85 powered 140 would use every bit of that 1100' at gross weight and a density altitude around 3000'. That's with the grass mowed nice and low too. Then, if you have obstacles to out climb the stock 140 becomes even less desirable. For the money, though, they are a great airplane.

-Matt

If you'd buy a Taylorcraft, that 1100' of grass would be just right.
JH

There are a lot of good already-built experimental planes on the market that can work out of 1100'. My Kitfox Speedster can do it. I fly out of a 2000' sea-level grass strip with 50'-60' trees within 100 feet the approach end. I never use more than 300' for takeoff, I'm at 100' altitude by mid-field, and I have never used more than half of the airfield to stop, even when I was sloppy. I only have 80 hp, so if I ever move to a high density altitude area then I'd upgrade to 100hp.

You might want to look for a Cessna 120/140 with a bigger engine. I have a Lycoming 0-235 in mine (115 theoretical hp), and while it's no Super Cub it would certainly work for your conditions. Plus it's enough airplane that you can keep it for a while and not be too limited in where you go.

Another guy on the field bought a Kit Fox with a 125 hp fuel injected continental engine on it, and it appears to be a very nice airplane. More umph than my 140 and fewer regulations to follow.

The Colt was a tricycle gear airplane. I suspect a few have been modified to tailwheel, as have a bunch of tri pacers, though.

The Champs are hard to beat. Totally honest, friendly little airplanes with a good useful load, and decent performance.

Same goes for a TCraft. The T Cart is a little harder to get in and out of than the Champs. TCraft is side by side seating, Champs are (mostly, except for the Chief) tandem seating. Great little airplanes in any case.

MTV

The best plane for that cost range is the piper PA22/20 Pacer. The 150 or 160HP engine is what is needed. For the money, nothing else compares.

Check out the SWPC website for more info.

flyer

Having just sold my Tripacer and having been a member of short wing Piper for 10 years I can tell you that at this time you won't find a PA 22-20 or a PA 20 for 25000 . THey run in the 30's for the most part. You can get a good tripacer for about 25 and fly it off your strip with ease. The conversion kit to tailwheel costs about 5000, not including mechanic to do it. I flew my tripacer all over Idaho and a bunch of dirt strips in between Never had a problem. The TRipacer nose gear is about the strongest ever built and takes a 600x6 tire. If you look at the nose gear and compare it to the one on the tri gear Maule you won't see much of a difference between them. Jeremy could say for sure but I think the Maule nose gear is modeled after the tripacers. I got about 9 gal an hour most times and when I went on long trips up high I got as low as 7.5 an Hour. Pretty economical I'd say. Good luck.

Iceman

I was also a member of SWPC for that period.
The reason that I think you are not correct is that I recently sold my PA22/20 for $25,000. It had a 150HP motor.

If you look carefully and are patient, you should be able to get one in that price range.

I would definitely look for a taildragger.

flyer

I currently fly a 182B with 600x6 on the nose and 700x6 mains. A Tripacer is a good plane but I already have a plane that will do most of what, if not all, a Tripacer will do but with more stuff on board.

Want a tailwheel and a Champ interest me cus I think it would be good to see the ground out of both sides of the plane.

How is a Champ for short fields. Anybody have one or had one.

Tim

Well the market is what it is. I sold my PA 22 for 25,000, and it had just been overhauled 200 hours before. At the time you couldn't git into a PA 20 for less than 28 unless engine was run out and it needed fabric. I also found out that most prospective buyers won't even look at a fabric plane unless the fabric is under 5 years old. Most don't understand anything about fabric. My fabric was over 20 years old and still punched over 58 pounds with a maule punch tester. If a fabric plane is hangared which mine was most of its life the fabric will lastthat long. It is still flying and the new owner loves it and doesn't plan to re cover for many years to come. Yes you can shop around and there are still deals to be had, but if you check SWP clubs for sale page most PA 22/20's are up there in the high 20's and low 30's. In any case the PA 22 with a climb prop(MIne was pitched to 53) will climb out better than any 172. I routinely saw climb rates of over 1000 FPM from My sea level strip and never had a problem at any strip in the idaho back country. It's a great little plane. I just needed more carrying power and wanted a Maule, which incidentally is a Pacer on steroids.

qmdv,

Not belabor your actual point but, yes, the 7AC Champs are a great little airplane, honest as the day is long, and 1000 feet of grass is plenty, assuming no serious mitigating factors, like three foot tall grass, 300 foot obstacles at both ends, etc...

The Champs can be had in that price range at reasonable cost. Look for a 90 hp airplane, the 90's are very strong engines for this little airframe.

There's a 7AC with 90 hp that I rent here some, and it's a fun little airplane. They are approved for spins, and have a fairly liberal loading envelope.

Note that these airplanes all had wooden spars, and there are AD's out there. No reason to be afraid of wood spars, but I'd look for one that's been recently rebuilt with new wood spars. A fellow here is in the process of rebuilding one if you're interested, though it'll be new when he's done, and the price may be a bit higher than you're considering. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll query him.

The spars are the main thing to look out for, but again, nothing to really fear, just don't be dumb in the purchase.

MTV

Tim, I'll second the idea of a Pacer. These ae one of the most under-rated airplanes around. A lot of airplane for the money. A good 150-horse Pacer will outperform my ragwing 170 on everything except landing distance.
A friend of mine has a nice PA-22/20-150 that he's decided to sell. Asking around $23K. Kinda high time engine but runs good, good compressions,good oil pressure,low oil consumption. I know the two previous owners before him, including the guy who did the tailwheel conversion. I have some time in this one, it really makes a liar out of the guys who say that all Pacers are squirrelly on the ground.
Email or PM me for his contact info.

Eric

Tim

All planes will have positives and negatives.
What do you want to do with the plane. The Champ is a great little plane for local flying. It is tandem and fun to fly. It is a very easy plane for a taildragger. It will not haul much. I started learning taildragging in a Champ.
You must Define the Mission.


flyer

OK I'd grab a 23000 dollar pacer. Over time you could improve it and get more than you paid out for it. I sold my PA 22 for 15000 more than I paid for it.

Tim

The Pacer is till the most bang for the buck available. Unlike the Pacer, with the training wheel in front, like my San Diego friend flew, the real Pacer is more difficult to land. It is very short coupled and some say squirrely. Once you learn to fly and land a Pacer, most other taildraggers should be fairly easy. If I could learn to fly it, anyone could.

It is not tandem seating like the Champ but it will haul a lot of stuff and do most anything you want. Define the Mission.

flyer

To properly state my mission for a starter tailwheel plane let me tell you about the plane I have. I bought a 182B in 2000 and just love the plane. That was the last strait tail they made in the 182. That was also the first year with cowl flaps.

After getting the plane, I wanted to learn to land the plane in more challenging places. To best accomplish this I had to change a few things that really slowed the plane down. First were the discarding of the wheel pants. Second was the nose fork off a T-41 (military version of the 172)along with 600xi6 up front. Then lastly it was the 700x6 mains.

This a really good plane for about 90% of the backcountry strips in Idaho and Utah. Maybe more if I were a better pilot. It carries a lot of stuff and has plenty of power. There are times when you never have enough power.

I have pobably sacrificed about 15 kts for the backcountry capabilities. When on a trip from here in nor cal to Mexico, those 15 kts would be a real blessing. In is easy to just change the mains and put on the pants for such a trip but to change the nose fork is a much bigger deal.

Now considering that the plane is pretty much alright for the rest of what I like, I was thinking of maybe a 180 down the road for me. With a 180 you can have the fat tires for one kind of flying and it is pretty simple to to change the mains from big fatties to small with wheel pants. Also the nose wheel is a real drag if you know what I mean.

Sorry for the ramble but I would want to get a second plane in a less expensive tail dragger to get enough hours to make the insurance more affordable when I move up. I have a 1100 ft strip at the ranch, so I would like to be able to use it. I do not necessarily need a taildrager for backcountry with high density altitude performance for this mission. This is for training but I would spend a couple of bucks more to get one that would transport me and a few camping essentials into a few places in Idaho.

Wow this turned into a long one. I know of a Tripacer that has been converted to a pacer that has 145 hp. At 2500 ft alltitude with my 1100 ft of grass and after some practice, do you think this will do. Then there is always a Champ.

Tim

Tim

I think you should be able to operate from that 1100 ft. strip with your 182.

flyer