I hope this does not become a "bash the CAP" thread" at this point.

As a background.... I have been a CAP member since I was a kid..... But at the same time will admit there is the good and the not so good.....

My professional career has been as a peace officer. Including over 10 years as a Sheriff's Deputy. Nearly 6 of that as a SAR Team Coordinator in Az, which had nothing to do with "CAP".

I have seen CAP turn up things when others can't. I have also seen CAP turn the big goose egg when other SAR teams seemed to "get it the easy way-the first time".

The CAP is a good org. in the long run. But it's not perfect.

As far as "locals" go. I have seen them be a help, and I have seen many, many instances where they were a great hinderance. Anyone who has supervised a civil SAR mission can relate to this. It's a no win situation. You may be doing the right thing by keeping the trained (or supposedly trained) on the job, but will catch hell for not letting every "local expert" in there to help.

I have been involved in more than one SAR case that went into a double case while going after a supposed "local expert".

Given such a high profile person such as Fossett, this has the distinct possibility of morphing into a finger pointing, innuendo filled blame session. (Not meaning on this board as such, but in the public in general). It would be an easy thing to just blame whatever org. searches for Fossett. The truth is that there are no guarantees.

mtv wrote:Then CAP cancelled the search and my flight plan.
MTV

I understand your frustration (to say the least) but I do not believe the CAP has the authority or "power" to cancel a flight plan.

Thanks for the replies, MTV I can see why you feel like you do. That is unbelievable.

I guess I thought that the local experts were looking, and CAP (or whomever) got sick of dealing with them and had the TFR started.

Like I said, I have been involved with CAP for about 3 months, so I know very little.

The one thing I like about their search and rescues is they seem to keep the searches going much beyond the rescue timeline. If it were just locals burning their own gas in their own planes, how long does the help hang out on a search like this Fosset one where there isn't much (any) hope of a happy outcome.

Don't get me wrong, I would do what I could with my resources, but I couldn't put my life on hold and keep looking forever, and I wouldn't like to tell the family that I was giving up the search.

Thanks for the replies, I hope I didn't offend anyone.

dav3469 wrote:I hope this does not become a "bash the CAP" thread" at this point.

As a background.... I have been a CAP member since I was a kid..... But at the same time will admit there is the good and the not so good.....

My professional career has been as a peace officer. Including over 10 years as a Sheriff's Deputy. Nearly 6 of that as a SAR Team Coordinator in Az, which had nothing to do with "CAP".

I have seen CAP turn up things when others can't. I have also seen CAP turn the big goose egg when other SAR teams seemed to "get it the easy way-the first time".

The CAP is a good org. in the long run. But it's not perfect.

As far as "locals" go. I have seen them be a help, and I have seen many, many instances where they were a great hinderance. Anyone who has supervised a civil SAR mission can relate to this. It's a no win situation. You may be doing the right thing by keeping the trained (or supposedly trained) on the job, but will catch hell for not letting every "local expert" in there to help.

I have been involved in more than one SAR case that went into a double case while going after a supposed "local expert".

Given such a high profile person such as Fossett, this has the distinct possibility of morphing into a finger pointing, innuendo filled blame session. (Not meaning on this board as such, but in the public in general). It would be an easy thing to just blame whatever org. searches for Fossett. The truth is that there are no guarantees.

Not really blaming the CAP here but bueracracy in general. I have some experience in a portion of the search area and I have some doubts about the CAP being able to a good search due to their limitations and policies. I would like to see the CAP (or any other SAR for that matter) be able to contract with, organize and utilize more local experts and not be so darned restrictive. It's like "this is our show and the rest of you can get lost". When faced with a difficult search, such as this one, flexibility in utilizing all available resources would be helpful and would likely produce results quicker. Yes, I know there are policies and rules for everyone's safety but often the bueracrats take over and common sense loses out to some commander's ego. I really have a problem with policy taking precedent over common sense. I'm not saying that is what's going on with this search as I'm not in contact with anyone involved, it is just my observations from being around some other SAR op's and my .02.

dav3469 wrote:

mtv wrote:Then CAP cancelled the search and my flight plan.
MTV

I understand your frustration (to say the least) but I do not believe the CAP has the authority or "power" to cancel a flight plan.

No, but they can call the local FSS and tell them that they found you and that you were down and safe. Now if you worked at the FSS and got that call what would you do?

Yes, I shortened the story a bit there. In Alaska, the Alaska State Troopers have primary responsibility for search and rescue. In many cases, they defer to CAP. In this case, CAP came back to FAI and notified the Troopers that I'd been located and was okay. The Troopers assumed the rest, but I spoke to the trooper who took the message from CAP, and he was pretty surprised to find out I'd still been out there, and that CAP had made no arrangements for my rescue.

dav3469: I agree with you.

There are better squadrons of CAP and some real stinkers. In some areas of the country, they may be the only real aerial search assets.

THe organization is totally at the mercy of whomever happens to be in charge at the local level, and more often than not, squadrons turn into a "private" flying club for several of the "colonel's" buddies. And, of course, if you're one who gets all sorts of cheap or free flying (members can rent government aircraft ) it's a great organization. It SHOULD be viewed on its effectiveness and cost/benefit ratio.

The CAP should have the capability to integrate "local experts" into searches, but if you don't have CAP stamped all over you, AND are from the local squadron, you'll have no part in any primary search area.

I've seen the way Montana conducts air searches, using volunteers from the area, who've attended their (Montana Aeronautics) Mountain Search Pilot Clinics. Makes a whole lot more sense to me than does the CAP. The state reimburses pilots for their gas, and this is a VERY dedicated and competent search resource. No marching around, no picyune bureaucracy, just "let's go find the guy". If I go missing again, I sure hope its in an area where they have responsibility or another outfit like them.

MTV

MTV...where abouts did you go down SW of FAI....I lived in Nenana/ENN for 8 years in late 70'-early 80's...some wild country. Lots of flying N of the AK range and south of the Yukon Rv.....

mtnflyr,

Mucha Lake. A friend of mine called it "Mucha Bad Luck Lake" .

MTV

N6EA wrote:Not really blaming the CAP here but bueracracy in general.

You hit the nail on the head, and the CAP is full of bueracracy.

The points brought out above about the "flying club" atmosphere at some locations are correct as well. This is something that the CAP has fought/had problems with for years. Some have advocated "pulling" the CAP away from the Air Force as its official auxiliary. The belief is some of the beuracratic crap would go away....

Don't get me wrong about local expertise. There is a place for it. The times local experts have really helped in SAR cases I worked was when they were "integrated" (waivered to participate) so to speak into a part of the plan. When same local experts went out and did their own thing because they did not want to work with the "establishment", it usually went some form of bad, or at the very least led to no useful work.

Also, lets not forget the dirty word that pops up in our society today..Liability.. Many agencies/states/local governments have paid out money and been ridiculed when said "locals" participated in a SAR case, got injured or killed, and then they or their families pointed the finger back and said something to the effect "well they (fill in the blank with agency or city) let them participate,it's their responsibility".

It's a no win situation.

mtv wrote:The CAP should have the capability to integrate "local experts" into searches, but if you don't have CAP stamped all over you, AND are from the local squadron, you'll have no part in any primary search area.

I've seen the way Montana conducts air searches, using volunteers from the area, who've attended their (Montana Aeronautics) Mountain Search Pilot Clinics. Makes a whole lot more sense to me than does the CAP. The state reimburses pilots for their gas, and this is a VERY dedicated and competent search resource. No marching around, no picyune bureaucracy, just "let's go find the guy". If I go missing again, I sure hope its in an area where they have responsibility or another outfit like them.

MTV

MTV,

I'm glad that you brought this up because I've had a question on my mind for a while that relates to this. I've wanted to become involved with SAR efforts and, short of joining CAP, was wondering what avenues others have taken to become involved.

About a year or so ago, a local boy where I live went missing in the mountains and the news covered the search, emphasizing the locals that came out and volunteered to help in the search effort. I emailed the Division of Aeronautics after the search was over and asked why volunteer pilots aren't used. Basically I was told that if the pilot wasn't affiliated with CAP or the state, they were allowed to help. I'm sure that liability issues play a big part. I emailed them because in my home state where I grew up, when you register with the Division, they ask you if you would be willing to help in SAR efforts and what your flight experience is. I thought that maybe my current state of residence would have the same thing.

For me, I really have no desire to join CAP. When I was a senior in high school, I "joined" CAP. I say "joined" because it ended up that the guy in charge in that area was embezzling money and was eventually caught and put in jail. The money along with my application paperwork disappeared with him. The overall experience was a joke. Since then, throughout my flying career, I've heard more bad than good regarding the types that are attracted to their flying corp.

Now I know that there are some very good groups out there with very capable pilots doing excellent work, so I don't mean to throw out a blanket statement. Nor is it my intent to be bashing or offend anyone. But knowing some CAP members, it follows that pattern.

I really like the sound of the way MT has their set up and wish that more states did it that way. Obviously you'd still have to be selective of who you would want helping out, but I think that the states should have a way of letting a person become "certified".

So anyway, back to the original question, those of you involved with SAR ops, what different paths did you take to get there?

Grasstrip,

I know of at least one fellow in Utah who has been proposing a SAR capability in Utah patterned after the Montana Aeronautics model.

Montana's program isn't just a free for all, by the way. Pilots attend a search pilot clinic and are then blessed by the state to participate. I don't really know all the details, perhaps someone from MT can elaborate more. It seems like a good system.

And, yes, liability drives a lot of things. Nevertheless, assuming someone has had some training, and is, as noted, part of the plan, those things should take care of themselves. There is always liability around. That is NOT the issue with CAP, in my opinion.

MTV

mtv wrote:Grasstrip,

I know of at least one fellow in Utah who has been proposing a SAR capability in Utah patterned after the Montana Aeronautics model.

Montana's program isn't just a free for all, by the way. Pilots attend a search pilot clinic and are then blessed by the state to participate. I don't really know all the details, perhaps someone from MT can elaborate more. It seems like a good system.

And, yes, liability drives a lot of things. Nevertheless, assuming someone has had some training, and is, as noted, part of the plan, those things should take care of themselves. There is always liability around. That is NOT the issue with CAP, in my opinion.

MTV

Who has he been proposing this to? The Division of Aeronautics? If he would be interested in any help/support, have him contact me via you. I'd like to hear more about it.

Case in point, wasn't Sparky found this Spring by fellow pilots that were attending the Mountain Flying seminar up in MT that he was participating in? I too would like to hear from any MT guys here that have more details.

I guess I'm not the only one who hasn't been impressed by CAP. Other than being a good deal for the select few who are a part of the "flying club" aspect of it. Of course, youy hafta enjoy wearing a green flight suit. Locally, CAP lost a lot of credibility when they got in a pissing match a few years ago with Washington State SAR about jurisdiction, also when they were had the "look for grass on the tailwheel" smuggler witch-hunt directive.

Eric

"look for grass on the tailwheel" smuggler witch-hunt directive.

Can you possibly expand on the above quote?!?
Curious Chris

wanabe wrote:"look for grass on the tailwheel" smuggler witch-hunt directive.

Can you possibly expand on the above quote?!?
Curious Chris

The CAP has a "Counter-Drug" program that uses CAP assets to fly surveillance flights, ect. for agencies such as DEA.

A few years before 9-11 a program came out (I can't remember it's name) that basically was supposed to be a observe and report kind of thing at airports.

It was not well thought out, and was not well recieved by the vast majority of CAP members, let alone the aviation public at the local airports.

The gist of it was CAP members would observe while out on the ramp and if they saw activity or an aircraft that matched behaviours found in illegal drug type activity, it would be reported. No confrontations, no getting in aircraft, nothing like that.....

How it was percieved was as a "Ramp Check", and that CAP members would be hassling people at the airport. That is why the majority of members hated the idea. We knew that somewhere, somehow, an over zealous member would get into a confrontation, or worse yet a member (to include cadets possibly) would be confronted or hurt by some irate pilot or owner who saw said members out on the ramp. Most of us believed it would interfere with our legit reason for existing-SAR. CAP units chase down errant ELT's on a daily basis at airports across the country. Getting the cold shoulder or worse while doing this needed function was not an appealing thought.

The program did not last long as I recall. As an active member at the time, as well as a full time deputy sheriff, I argued very hard against it with the wing. It was not well thought out by HQ to accept this kind of "mission".

just read today that the search for fossett has ended. they mentioned keeping 2 aircraft on stand by in case a lead turned up, other than that, everyones 'gone home.

I will still be look for him every time I fly that way, even if it is years from now.

I'm do wonder if he went down in the water though.....

Zona wrote:I will still be look for him every time I fly that way, even if it is years from now.

I'm do wonder if he went down in the water though.....

Same here, I will continue looking until he is found. It may have to be a backpacker that finally ends the mystery, similar to the doctor and daughter in the supercub a couple of years ago.

Crews plan weekend search near Death Valley

CARSON CITY, Nev. – Relying on new leads from Air Force experts, crews looking for famed aviator Steve Fossett plan to comb a rugged area near Death Valley by air and foot, authorities said Tuesday.
Gary Derks, the state Department of Public Safety official in charge of the search, said the Air Force analyzed images picked up by radar and satellite and “picked up what could be Mr. Fossett, his track.”

“It gives us an idea, if it's him, what direction he was going,” Derks said of the wealthy adventurer, missing for more than three weeks.
Derks said the area stretches about 100 miles to the southeast from where Fossett took off Sept. 3, an airstrip on a million-acre ranch owned by hotel mogul Barron Hilton. Maps show the area would include Nevada's remote Silver Peak Range, close to Death Valley National Park in California.

“There's nothing definite, nothing concrete,” Derks said. “These are just some hits that we want to track.”

Search planes will fly over the area Saturday and Sunday, Derks said.

The area is “very rough terrain,” Derks said. “If he's there, he's going to be hard to see. That's why we're sending in the ground search-and-rescue crews, too.”

A private search effort by Fossett's family and friends continued Tuesday when a plane with sophisticated camera gear took off from the ranch.

So if your headed to the Chicken Strip, keep an eye out for Steve. Charles Manson was "lost" at the Chicken Strip for a few months. I know there have been a few "free spirited" individuals (clothing optional) that have made the springs home for extended lengths of time. Is the CAP, Airforce, etc. going to be pissed if they find a Decathlon at the Chicken Strip and Steve sitting in one of the tubs???