Hi guys, wanted to put something out there, I was watching the video that Greg (Big Renna) put out talking about the contents of his survival vest. I found it very interesting and watched it a second time with my wife. During the discussion my wife asked why he would keep all that on him, to which I explained that a lot of times if something happens you get out with what is on you and the plane can be destroyed in a fire.

She then came up with something I had not thought about. why wouldn't we put a lot of that stuff in the float compartment? (I fly with EDO 2440's with one compartment) odds are if we had something happen we would be inverted on the water with the plane floating and would/should be able to access after, water temp depending. if we were to end up in the trees, wouldn't the floats better survive a post crash fire?

we both agree that I should have an assortment in MY vest for the initial "insult" as Big Renna put it (she's not carrying all that shit on her, i was told)

Just wanted to find out a couple of things;

does anyone carry survival gear in their floats, if so what? all I have in there is an anchor and rope
would the gear in there be accessible in most instances? an opinion i realize but would still like to hear it
and
what kind of things should a float pilot have that a wheeled pilot wouldn't, besides means of patching floats?

look forward to hearing what you have to say

thanks
Roamer

Steelroamer wrote:Hi guys, wanted to put something out there, I was watching the video that Greg (Big Renna) put out talking about the contents of his survival vest. I found it very interesting and watched it a second time with my wife. During the discussion my wife asked why he would keep all that on him, to which I explained that a lot of times if something happens you get out with what is on you and the plane can be destroyed in a fire.

She then came up with something I had not thought about. why wouldn't we put a lot of that stuff in the float compartment? (I fly with EDO 2440's with one compartment) odds are if we had something happen we would be inverted on the water with the plane floating and would/should be able to access after, water temp depending. if we were to end up in the trees, wouldn't the floats better survive a post crash fire?

we both agree that I should have an assortment in MY vest for the initial "insult" as Big Renna put it (she's not carrying all that shit on her, i was told)

Just wanted to find out a couple of things;

does anyone carry survival gear in their floats, if so what? all I have in there is an anchor and rope
would the gear in there be accessible in most instances? an opinion i realize but would still like to hear it
and
what kind of things should a float pilot have that a wheeled pilot wouldn't, besides means of patching floats?

look forward to hearing what you have to say

thanks
Roamer

I store a small (2) man life raft in the right float. I placarded the right float so if, inverted, I can still remember which side. If, I might get wet polypropylene underwear is great! If it's really cold a dry suit or 5mm wet suit. Yep, I fly in a wet suit some times if I want to get in the water and temps are low.

Steelroamer wrote:She then came up with something I had not thought about. why wouldn't we put a lot of that stuff in the float compartment? (I fly with EDO 2440's with one compartment) odds are if we had something happen we would be inverted on the water with the plane floating and would/should be able to access after, water temp depending. if we were to end up in the trees, wouldn't the floats better survive a post crash fire?

we both agree that I should have an assortment in MY vest for the initial "insult" as Big Renna put it (she's not carrying all that shit on her, i was told)

Just wanted to find out a couple of things;

does anyone carry survival gear in their floats, if so what? all I have in there is an anchor and rope
would the gear in there be accessible in most instances? an opinion i realize but would still like to hear it
and
what kind of things should a float pilot have that a wheeled pilot wouldn't, besides means of patching floats?

look forward to hearing what you have to say

thanks
Roamer

Your wife's point is well taken, and, I might add, I'm glad to hear that you're both wearing inflatable vests for seaplane ops.

I worked for an agency which operated ~ 35 airplanes in Alaska. About half of those, give or take, routinely operated on floats during the summer season.

Ray Tremblay was one of our old time pilots, who'd been around bush Alaska for many years, as a trapper, a bush pilot and a game warden/pilot. Ray coined the phrase "Your Survival Gear is the stuff you have on your person when you crawl out of the airplane. The stuff in that bag in the baggage compartment is camping gear, not survival gear." For years after his retirement, he taught survival courses
and worked as an advisor on arctic survival for Alyeska Pipeline.

I learned a lot from Ray, and at one point during discussions about improving our survival gear, I pointed out that we had no standardized "kit" that we wore while flying......something that Ray emphasized in all his training programs.

I was assigned the task of developing a "standard" survival vest for the agency. Since water flying was a big part of our mission, I figured the vest needed to be an inflatable PFD. The problem was, we had a policy that we were to wear flame retardant clothing when flying low level.....and all the inflatable vests I could find had nylon or other synthetic outer layers. I contacted Stearns and asked if they would consider manufacturing some of their standard vests for us with a Nomex outer layer. They agreed. They also sent me a prototype so that we could decide how many pockets to install and where they should be located.

We got that figured out, and Stearns manufactured those vests for us as a special order. They appointed Eagle Enterprises in Anchorage as the exclusive distributor of those vests.

So, we were then faced with the next question: What to put in the vests. I had already been wearing survival vests for several years at that point, and I'd realized pretty quickly that if you cram enough "stuff" in a vest, the vest will be so uncomfortable that most folks won't wear it.

Which is your wife's point precisely, as a matter of fact. So, I limited the amount of gear I carried in my vests (I wore a USAF mesh survival vest in winter when on wheels/skis) and in the vests that I built for my passengers. Our policy was that EVERYone flying in one of our airplanes was required to wear a survival vest. I found that most passengers/crew were willing to wear a fairly lightly loaded vest, and a very few would actually wear a heavily stocked vest.

But, most folks would simply toss the vests in the baggage compartment if they were very heavily loaded.

And, that's what happened with Sparky Imeson. Sparky was instructing in a Husky with the owner out of Townsend, MT during a mountain flying seminar. The owner of the plane wore a pretty well loaded vest the day before when I flew with him. The day he and Sparky flew, they didn't return at the appointed time. We were hoping for a PLB signal, since we knew both of them had PLBs in their vests.

At one point, I walked over to Sparky's Cessna 180, parked on the ramp, and looked in the window......and there was his survival vest, hung on the pilot's seat back.

After they were found, we got the story. Just prior to takeoff, Sparky had commented that it was really warm, and so he took his vest over to his plane and left it. The Husky owner also removed his vest and placed it in the baggage compartment of the Husky. Unfortunately, when they crashed, the airplane caught fire almost immediately, and they weren't able to retrieve the vest from the plane.

So, there's an example of the notion that if you make your survival vest bulky and/or heavy, ie: uncomfortable, many people will simply leave it at home. These were both very experienced pilots, with good knowledge and skills, and I can't criticize them at all. Their vests were just too much of a good thing.

So, let's go back and look at this particular accident in that context:

If either or both of these pilots had placed a PLB in a shirt pocket or in a sheath on their belt, like a cell phone, we'd have known precisely where they were within an hour, and they'd have been picked up within a couple hours of the accident.

So, in response to your wife's reluctance to lug around a heavy vest, I'd at least start with putting a PLB in her vest, at the very least. And, of course, make certain she knows how to use it.

I'd probably put a few other small items in her vest as well, like a small signal mirror, a flashlight, a knife, etc. but I'd keep her vest light and avoid bulk. It's essential that she wear that vest, especially when on floats, so don't encourage her to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".

As to her suggestion of keeping a survival kit in the floats: I've seen a few folks do so. Invariably, these survival kits rapidly became damp, if not wet, and moldy. Metal items rust, etc. Yes, I know.....you'll take good care of that gear, just like everyone intends to do, but.

And, getting a survival kit out of an inverted float is going to be a serious challenge. First, if the water is very cold at all, you are going to increase the risk of hypothermia significantly by trying to fish that thing out of the float compartment while it's inverted. Will you be able to FIND that compartment with the floats upside down? Yes, I'm sure you can, but how long will you be in the water trying to find it?

I have been in three survival situations in remote Alaska. Fortunately, I was not injured in any of those, but the items I absolutely want on my person are these:

1) Signalling devices, as follows: A PLB, a signal mirror, a flashlight

The PLB is a no brainer and everyone should understand the value there. Signal mirror will help rescuers find you once they're in the area. A flashlight is an invaluable tool at night as well as a great signalling device. Bear in mind that many SAR operations now work on NVGs at night, and a flashlight can be seen for miles on NVGs. But, bear in mind that the weather may delay a rescue. So, don't wait around for rescue....start setting up camp, immediately.

2) Fire making devices: At least three means to start a fire. I carry lifeboat matches, a small butane torch, and a Blast Match, as well as some fire starter pellets.

3) Water container: I carry one of the plastic flat types that fold flat and stow compactly.

4) Parachute cord, a total of about 25 feet or more.

5) A "good" knife. I carry a good large folding knife clipped in a pocket pretty much always, but it's a good idea to stock a good knife in a vest as well.

6) For summer, bug dope. 100 % DEET. Nothing else works as well.

7) Clothing appropriate to survive on the ground over which you'll fly. I see this one violated a LOT, especially in summer. Shorts and flip flops?? Really? Proper clothing will protect you pretty well, even if you don't have shelter, unless it rains.....

A lightweight tarp.....shelter from rain. Keep it small and thin enough that it'll fit in a pocket of the vest.

9) Medical gear: Here is where I think you really have to weigh (pun intended) the risk and benefit of carrying a LOT of bulky stuff on your person. I don't want to minimize the potential need for medical gear, but consider two things here:

a) How much stuff are you willing and prepared to lug around on every flight?
b) Are you sufficiently trained to effectively USE a lot of medical stuff?

My experience suggests that I'll keep the medical stuff to a minimum. Some aspirin/Advil, a few large bandages, a blood stopper bandage, and that's about it. Unless you have prescription meds the absence of which could be life threatening. Allergic to bee stings? Carry an epi pen in your vest. Etc.

I'm not staying out there long enough to worry about infection or the consequences of drinking polluted water. You MUST remain hydrated, so drink water. So, you come down with Giardia....it won't kick in till you're home (you DID remember to pull the trigger on the PLB, right?), and have access to doctors and meds, and it can be cured easily, as can most of the "bugs" you're likely to encounter from drinking water downstream of the herd. If you're really worried about nasty water, carry a small bottle of water purification tablets. Makes the water taste terrible, but.... Major bleeds are going to take care of infections, the problem there is stopping the bleed. You don't need a full med kit to do that, necessarily.

There are a hundred other things that you could stock in your vest. If it makes you happy, and you'll still WEAR that vest, go for it.

But, recognize that most folks simply aren't going to wear a very bulky vest.

Other things I always carry in seaplanes: As you noted, some simple patches to plug a hole in a float. Especially up north, there are a LOT of sharp rocks. wipaire used to sell a patch kit. I've flown a float with a scab patch for several hours without issues. Lots of line for tiedown in the bush. I never carried a raft. I doubt you'd have much luck getting one out of a float locker and inflated and still be able to get IN the raft in cold water. Otherwise, not much I carry different on floats than on wheels, assuming I'm flying a "rural" area.

And, no, I would not stow my survival kit in a float compartment.

Finally, if you do get in a pinch, before you light off that PLB, ensure that your ELT isn't also activated. It's possible that the two signals could interfere with each other. Use one first, then when the battery is dead on it, turn on the other. But by then, you may be at home, with a great story to tell.

MTV

Stress training to your wife: I do. You can make it fun... (You made need a dry suit or wet suit if cold)

* Shooting flares from the water, wind effects etc.
* learn to jump into the water and inflate a vest
* deploy a life raft cut the tether and get in without losing it in the trades
* radio/EPIRB procedures
* Helicopter/surface craft rescue seminars
* egress ie. http://www.dunkyou.com
* GPS fixes etc.

We use expired flares ( get OK first from local agencies! ), rafts and vest to save dinero $$ .

Get an OK FROM USCG before using, flares radio etc! White flares are practice only. EPIRB (5) minutes past the hour, short burst to test.

Thanks guys,
MTV my thoughts for things in the float would be the secondary, nice to haves and things that I can vac pack to keep from getting moldy and that will not beat holes in the bottom of the float. i.e. my water filtration bags, small MSR stove, large tarp, better assortment of energy bars, etc. like you my first reaction was they will get wet and moldy, vacuum packing might aid in my good intentions and lack of execution, maybe. The items you mentioned to put in my wifes vest make really good sense. thanks for that.

By the way Ray Tremblay, is that the same one that wrote a book about his days as a wildlife officer in Alaska? read the book, was pretty good

8GCBC
what does the raft you carry weigh? where did you get it? and what are they worth?

Roamer

About 14 LBS:

http://www.reveresurvival.com/index.php/revere-products/aviation-liferaft/2-person-aero-compact-liferaft



Highly recommend these guys to purchase. Free shipping in one day delivery (Oregon).

http://www.pacificcoastavionics.com/avionics-installations.aspx

Mike has some good points from real world experience and for sure, the more crap you carry, the harder it will be to have on when needed. This is fundamentally why I chose not to focus on a "list" per se, but rather focus on a philosophical approach to preparation. Put ten of us in a room and your gonna get ten hard fought opinions on what is appropriate. Survival gear is truly a subjective list that is going to be different for all.

That said, medical items are a bit different and (IMHO) are a bit less subjective. MTV is 100% spot on about folks needing to know how to use what they bring, but the fact is that simple 1st aid works, and it is indeed simple. I'd encourage all to try to make time to at least take a WFA (Wilderness First Aid) course. There are a couple of really good companies out there now that are giving good instruction, and in a weekend, you will get a good baseline for being effective post-crash and even on the little league field. If your interested, PM me and I'd be glad to point you in the right direction. Courses are offered all around the US and many countries around the planet.

Since it was listed above, I would like to make one suggestion on the use of hemostatic agents such as Quickclot etc.. There is a really great abstract from last year... In a nutshell, the data says that based on live tissue study with pigs, old fashioned well aimed direct pressure (well aimed is the key) seems to be just as effective as the use of hemostatic agents. For sure it cant hurt, but I would probably dissuade folks from the additional cost and size of this added bit of kit.

If your interested in the abstract, you can read it here: http://www.vighter.com/wp-content/uploa ... gs-ISR.pdf

bigrenna wrote:Mike has some good points from real world experience and for sure, the more crap you carry, the harder it will be to have on when needed. This is fundamentally why I chose not to focus on a "list" per se, but rather focus on a philosophical approach to preparation. Put ten of us in a room and your gonna get ten hard fought opinions on what is appropriate. Survival gear is truly a subjective list that is going to be different for all.

That said, medical items are a bit different and (IMHO) are a bit less subjective. MTV is 100% spot on about folks needing to know how to use what they bring, but the fact is that simple 1st aid works, and it is indeed simple. I'd encourage all to try to make time to at least take a WFA (Wilderness First Aid) course. There are a couple of really good companies out there now that are giving good instruction, and in a weekend, you will get a good baseline for being effective post-crash and even on the little league field. If your interested, PM me and I'd be glad to point you in the right direction. Courses are offered all around the US and many countries around the planet.

Since it was listed above, I would like to make one suggestion on the use of hemostatic agents such as QuickClot etc... There is a really great abstract from last year... In a nutshell, the data says that based on live tissue study with pigs, old fashioned well aimed direct pressure (well aimed is the key) seems to be just as effective as the use of hemostatic agents. For sure it cant hurt, but I would probably dissuade folks from the additional cost and size of this added bit of kit.

If your interested in the abstract, you can read it here: http://www.vighter.com/wp-content/uploa ... gs-ISR.pdf

Good information all, and Greg is right about training. I certified to EMT I, II and III in Alaska, but a Wilderness EMT course several years later fit my needs much better. That said, I haven't kept up on the latest procedures.....follow Gregs recommendations there.

The real takeaway here is to carry SOMEthing, whether it's in a vest, a belt pack or just in your pockets. All the tools in the world will do you little good if they're hanging on a hook back at your hangar.

And get some training. Montana Aeronautics offers survival courses every winter, and there are others out there. Take advantage of some of those courses. If nothing else, they'll give you a lot more confidence in your skills and your kit.

Finally, if nothing else, take your gear out onto your back yard (assuming you have one) and spend the night. A good way to see what works.

I broke a ski axle once on a remote lake. After I was "found" by CAP (in a 185 on skis, but they don't LAND on skis) and told I was camping for the night, I broke out my gear and set up camp. Built a one person shelter, got a fire going, melted snow for drinking water, and spent the night.....at -40.

A comprehensive list of the tools I used:

One gore from a surplus parachute (for the shelter)

My faithful folding knife (to make kindling for the fire and cut boughs for the shelter)

A small aluminum folding shovel (to move snow for the shelter)

The clothes on my back.

I slept in till almost nine.

It doesn't take that much, if you have just a little knowledge AND the confidence that you know what you're doing.

MTV

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--vhf85-handheld-vhf-radio--11954328

In coastal areas, rivers and lakes, most marine surface vessels will have a marine VHF radio. In fact it may be mandatory in certain locations.

Example: the fiords of British Columbia have boat, ship and barge traffic. If somebody needs help, a surface vessel monitoring VHF Channel 16** would be a good place to start. Formal SAR services could be very far away and getting help soon is always better, if possible.

**Channel VHF (16) is international "calling/distress" frequency



Boats in this picture are mostly listening to VHF (16), I would bet:


Barges moving up and down the fiords are listening to VHF (16):

mtv wrote: b) Are you sufficiently trained to effectively USE a lot of medical stuff?

+1

Your fist aid kit should reflect your abilitys as a medic.
Otherwise the other stuff you don't know how to use may as well be rocks for all the good it does,unless your flying with someone more trained,but then the stuff should be on him/her.

Just my 2 cents