Backcountry Pilot • Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

A general forum for anything related to flying the backcountry. Please check first if your new topic fits better into a more specific forum before posting.
84 postsPage 2 of 51, 2, 3, 4, 5

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

FloatFlyer wrote:... Make sure you bring a towel to wipe your hands on before most landings :D . ........


I can relate-- when I was getting my tailwheel checkout years ago, me & my instructor got a laugh out of calling my C170 a "Cessna One-Sweaty".
As was pointed out, make a decision by short final as to whether it's gonna be a 3-pointer or wheeler-- indecision can lead to some ugly landings (if you can even call them that).
As I recall, the skywagon site has a link to a good article submitted by Bill White regarding the way MAF wheel landing technique. I don't necesarily do them exactly as they describe, but it's a good place to start- you can refine the procedure to fit your own purposes as you get more experience. As was mentioned, you should approach at the same speed as a 3-pointer. I like to use a little less nose-up trim, maybe 30 degrees flaps, and add just a little power at the last minute to reduce sink rate. The power comes all the way off as the wheels touch. FWIW the C150/150TD does not wheel land as easy as my old 170.
I know guys who do nothing but 3 pointers, and others who do nothing but wheelers. In the 170, I did mainly wheelers but do mainly 3 pointers in the 150TD. I think both types of landings are appropriate depending on conditions and therefore feel a pilot should be proficient at both.
Good luck and have fun!
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10535
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Hey AKTahoe,

The advice from Gump and MTV is right on.

This fire season is almost over. I will show you some tricks and give you tips to get it just right when I am finished. Wheel landing with 40 flaps and 55-60 IAS is easy, you will see. There is a trick to it. You will use it where Lowrider, you, and I like to land. Especially the narrow short ones. Glad to hear you are out gettin time!

Heals on the floor until you land, and no boots! Unless you like instant ground loops. That is how I got my 180 for a big discount. Past owner landed unknowingly with one foot on the brake! #-o #-o :oops:
Splashpilot offline
User avatar
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: Columbia, CA
55' 180
O-520

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Ah, Yes....the one thing that NO flight instructor can fix: A set of size 14's on the top of the pedals.... :oops:

MTV
mtv offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 10515
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:47 am
Location: Bozeman

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Thankfully I where a 10.5 shoes.

Rich have been flying in my Vans.....No boots per what you said when we spoke.

Had fun yesterday morning with 4 more landings here in the pouring rain. Turned into a torrential down pour on lap 4! Decided to make it my last not wanting to push my luck. Asphalt felt like it was getting slippery.

Saw lot of folks in the coffee shop talking about flying when I came in. Some gave me some strange looks.

Think I am up to about 53 landings now in the beast. Made 2 three pointers and 2 wheels yesterday. Same speed on both.

Starting to play with the 40 degrees on both. I guess what is strange to me is that I was taught to trim all the way back. That created A LOT of forward pressure to be had on the yoke when doing the wheels landings. I kept the trim about the same yesterday from take off to landing (only trimmed a slight bit back for landing) and it really decreased the pressure on the yoke for the wheel landings. MAF recommends that you keep your trim forward (make sense) but again was shown the other way. I think I like the trim a bit more forward. Any suggestions / ideas to this? I do realize its a personal thing but...

I like the tail low concept as well and rolling onto the mains. Just feels crazy to be pushing forward but its getting better with each landing. The trim forward helps for certain with the yoke pressure.

Ok, enough for now....going back to the airport as we have a small window today with the weather before we get snow tonight.

Thanks for the beta gang!
aktahoe1 offline
User avatar
Posts: 2052
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Alaska and Lake Tahoe = aktahoe
If it looks smooth, it might be. If it looks rough, it is...www.bigtirepilot.com ...www.alaskaheliski.com

Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

I generally trim down for wheelies and up for threelies. I like the action of just relaxing the back pressure on the stick to stick it on for the wheelie, and vice versa, the extra "power" on the elevator for full threelie.

Anyone else ever feel like they experience gyroscopic force when pinning the tail low wheelie, resulting in a little additional left turning force?
Zzz offline
Janitorial Staff
User avatar
Posts: 2857
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: northern
Aircraft: Swiveling desk chair
Half a century spent proving “it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

aktahoe1 wrote:.....I like the tail low concept as well and rolling onto the mains. Just feels crazy to be pushing forward but its getting better with each landing.....


I usually land with the tail pretty low, but do not push it up higher after landing. You've already quit flying- what's the point? I like to slow down & get the tailwheel on the ground ASAP for more positive control. The exception being when I have to get on the brakes hard right away, then the tail stays up but I keep it from getting any higher with back-pressure.
This was a good short strip method in the 170, but in the 150 a slow approach & 3-pointer seems to work better.
A guy here at my airport wheels his 180 on every time and rolls out with the tail extremely high- so high in fact that it is at least "straight and level" attitude if not higher. Kinda show-offy IMHO, plus a bad habit to get into-- hazardous if you were to hit a soft spot or big hole on an unimproved strip. He definitely does not land very short doing that from what I've seen.
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10535
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

AKTahoe,

My 180 is nose heavy with the O-520 and the 3 blade 401 so I can't trim up enough to relieve the nose down pressure below 70, with one or two people and fuel. I have to hold back pressure in mine. But for a wheel landing you should have it trimmed down(forward) 2-3 rolls (really only the trim wheel exposed amount) from full up.

The reason is,..... you are trimming the WHOLE stab, not a little trim tab on an elevator. It has a big effect on a 180. If you can trim yours at 60 and its forward of aft good. You want your stab more toward level.

There ya go,..a tiny tip that makes all the difference in the world. :D That will be $75! :lol: :lol: jk jk
Splashpilot offline
User avatar
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: Columbia, CA
55' 180
O-520

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Nice one Rich!

$75 it is! Sounds like a dry lake bed burger somewhere...

Went this am and made 14 more with a bit of wind involved. Hit all 4 runways. Ceiling was hovering around 900' or so...good times!

Kept the trim about the same through out the flight and landing at 50-55. Kept the trim just a bit forward but not even close to what I had been trimming back. Really took off all the pressure on the yoke. Pretty fired up on this plane! Slips really nice as well. Holding 70 around the corners with 40 degrees, then flaring to the mains at the last second. Think I am getting her stopped in about 500' or so. Dont want to rush the stop as it can get squirley at the end of the roll if not on it but really like keeping the tail just off the ground. Its a cool feeling feathering the brakes to a stop.

Anxious for you to get up here. Should have about 500 landings by next week.....well...at least 150 anyway..

stay tuned...
aktahoe1 offline
User avatar
Posts: 2052
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Alaska and Lake Tahoe = aktahoe
If it looks smooth, it might be. If it looks rough, it is...www.bigtirepilot.com ...www.alaskaheliski.com

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

I prefer the wheel landings in our 180, it seems like the rudder works best when it is up in the air, not just above the ground. It seems like the flaps blanket the rudder just as the tailwheel touches, and makes strong crosswinds exciting :shock:

I like 30 on the flaps, and rolling it up on the mains like described earlier.

Have fun, and keep learning!
lancef53 offline
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: Portland, ND

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

10 more tonight...

Wind was up around 10-12kts or so quartering off the nose. Liked 20 degrees with the wheel landing best with the slight cross wind. This plane is feeling pretty good. 55 feels like a good speed.

Tomorrow looks like a down day given the curret weather FX.
aktahoe1 offline
User avatar
Posts: 2052
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Alaska and Lake Tahoe = aktahoe
If it looks smooth, it might be. If it looks rough, it is...www.bigtirepilot.com ...www.alaskaheliski.com

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

$.02
Try this just to make an impression on your self!?!just about when you touch down with the trim where you like it, Do a full power like your life depended on it, go around, I mean COBB the throttle to the wall, not push it in like you would do on a practice one.
THAT SHOULD DEMONSTRATE WHERE THE TRIM SHOULD BE!!(maybe I should say where it should not be)
It's nice to trim it so it will land itself, just do that when you have lots of runway.
Trim it for full power take off for landing as that might be what your landing ends up being, You have some muscles in your arms, they will last long enough to get it on the ground!! They might not be enough for a take off!!!
If you have it rolled back you will not have enough strength in 1 hand to keep the nose down while you milk the flaps off, now I don't know about a 180, but I know you only do it about once in a 185!
Good luck and have as much fun as you can stand.
GT
M6RV6 offline
User avatar
Posts: 2313
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:52 pm
Location: Rice Wa. 82WN Magee Creek AERODROME
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... sWKXuhKlg2
Have as much Fun as is Safe, and Keep SMILIN! GT,

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

You have that right GT. Steve
steve offline
User avatar
Posts: 822
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 am
Location: Dryden, North/West Ontario
Aircraft: 1980 Cessna 185F

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Preaching to the choir I know, but I thought this from AvWeb was a good read...

A Good Trainer Does All the Teaching

By Paul Bertorelli

One of the things I've noticed about aviation journalists is that we don't tend to run against the grain much, probably for fear of being perceived as wild-eyed lunatics. You know, the whole opinion leader thing. But I'm quite comfortable with my own wild-eyed lunacy and I like to think I pull off hysteria with class, a cynical critical eye and occasional tasteful restraint. Conformity makes a warm Petri dish for accepted truths to flourish. Some examples: Engine failure is most likely to occur at the first power change after takeoff; there are those who have and those who will land gear up; the only time you can have too much fuel is if you're on fire; taildragger pilots are the only real pilots. Being a contrarian, I've never believed any of these but I confess, I'm rethinking that last one, the taildragger thing.

Now that I've been doing some primary instruction in the Cub, I'm beginning to wonder if it's true. To be honest, I never liked doing primary that much. I always tilted toward instrument instruction because I like the challenges of flying real weather and the arcane esoterics of divining your position in space solely from five or six gauges. But then I'd never instructed in a Cub. So I now find myself astonished to be thinking it may be the best trainer ever built. And not just for primary students.

Given the Cub's faults—and they are many—this shouldn't be so, but it turns out that the faults really are attributes. Its pathetically low power loading forces a pilot to plan ahead and really think through takeoff capabilities on a short runway. And you'll embarrass yourself with a hands-of-stone coaxed rotation before it's ready to fly. Gobs of adverse yaw and a glacial roll rate requires use of a rudder whose response is, at times, temperamental. The brakes offer little but nodding acknowledgment to friction so you learn to fly without them, thus never acquiring the gratingly stupid habit of riding the brakes during taxi.

From the instructional perspective, this has resulted in something I didn't expect: I don't do much in the Cub. The other day, my 16-year-old student, Jordan, and I were pottering over the Intracoastal Waterway doing rectangular patterns. He lined up the Cub's wheel with the shoreward side of the waterway, cranked in some angle and we watched as a brisk easterly drifted us off the line. I don't think I said a thing; he watched the drift, carved into it a little and knew what to expect on the opposite leg.

Later, during some landing workups at Buchan, a lovely little grass patch south of Venice, I luxuriated in silence in the Cub's expansive front seat while Jordan applied the necessary angles in the pattern and on final. In any airplane, but especially a Cub, the metric of emerging success is a rail-straight roll down the centerline with aggressive rudder inputs before the nose begins to sway to either side, not after the excursion starts. Jordon was doing that, so I guess he and the Cub were talking because I sure wasn't.

This reinforces another lunatic notion I've always had: Just about anyone who wants to can, with sufficient motivation and time, teach themselves to fly. A CFI's job should be little more than keeping the airplane from cratering and knocking the sharp edges off whatever insurmountable learning barriers arise while this process progresses. Otherwise, shutting the #$@% up isn't such a bad thing. I recognize everyone learns differently and some students need more than others, including motivation. I've never been much good at that, having been blessed almost entirely with motivated students, many of whom I recruited because they were motivated.

There are some things we can't do easily in the Cub. When I Googled around for some samples of pre-solo quizzes, I was a little shocked to see how many instructors build these things around regulations, airspace and especially radio work at towered fields. (Admittedly, the FARs push this.) With our iffy radio, I think I'll pass on trying to operate into a towered field. We'll get to that later.

Several of the quizzes I found were structured as though the flying is assumed, as though radio operation is the real art and stick and rudder is just a means of putting the radio where you want it. I'll concede the point, for that is what we have become.

So if the J-3 isn't the universe's best trainer, what is? For my money, it just might be either a Legend Cub or a maybe a Sport Cub from Cub Crafters, with a simple glass panel. Yes, glass. These airplanes fly almost like the original—a little better—have just enough additional power to gin up the performance—but can be flown on the wing, just like a J-3. The glass panel provides a useful link to the modern world of flight without giving up the extraordinary benefits of the old. When you get tired of watching the phony horizon on the glass, switch it off and watch the real one.

If that's not the best of all worlds, I don't know what is. (Wonder if there's a used one out there I could afford…)
Vick offline
User avatar
Posts: 823
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:21 pm
Location: Grass Valley, CA
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... WUk8CX06AP
Solum Volamus

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Nice article Vick. Steve and GT, I would argue that for what we use these aircraft to accomplish, the landing is always assumed when down to the dirt and the go-around generally is done from 50 feet up which shouldn't require cobbing the throttle. What sorts of situations have you found where this is necessary. I will agree that when doing pattern work, it is NOT advantageous to go to full power with full flaps and full aft trim because of what you describe. But if you are not using the stab to take the load off, the aircraft isn't flying as efficiently / slowly as it could? Obviously can't make the same argument with an elevator trim tab. Please help me if I am thinking incorrectly regarding achievement of max performance/slowest stall speed with the trimmable stabilizer.
Matt 7GCBC offline
User avatar
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Northwest
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... vXLMMuZOv7

Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Matt 7GCBC wrote:Nice article Vick. Steve and GT, I would argue that for what we use these aircraft to accomplish, the landing is always assumed when down to the dirt and the go-around generally is done from 50 feet up which shouldn't require cobbing the throttle. What sorts of situations have you found where this is necessary.


Your airstrip must experience winds much less squirrely than mine! :)
onceAndFutr_alaskaflyer offline
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:23 pm
Location: Keweenaw Peninsula, Michigan and Carson Valley, Nevada

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Good example! So with gusty crosswinds I am less likely to go into a short one way strip less than say 1000 ft. If you have that much room you can use a bit more speed, less aft trim and thus less likelihood of getting in the full trim,flap and power situation described. Many people don't use full flaps in squirrely winds which would negate the chance. I have the Robertson STOL on my 180 and am still not decided on what I like best in a cross wind, gusty wind situation. My preference is to always land as slow as possible and being able to dump flaps after touching down and have the wing be done flying is a plus in my experience. With the Robertson I find myself going with less flap and thus a higher speed after having had the wind overpower the full flap aileron deflection of the Robertson kit.
Matt 7GCBC offline
User avatar
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Northwest
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... vXLMMuZOv7

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

It begs the question ... when is it too late to do a go around?

A friend of mines daughter was dating a kid who wanted to learn to fly. My friend set him up with his J-3 and an excellent instructor. Unfortunately for the young man, when it came time for his first solo a large group of people showed up to watch. Well, he got a little nervous I guess and ground looped the landing. But instead of chopping the power and holding on he decided to go around. He did a 720 degree turn before getting it straightened out and took off down the runway. He got tagged with the nickname Lupe' that day but proved that it's never too late to go around.

s.
Jumpy offline
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:39 am

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Deer, bear, dogs, moose, touch down in the dark and all of a sudden you lights are full of cows, deer? It does not work to just shut the lights out so you can't see them! Motorcycle from no where, That great big huge log or rock that you thought was a lot smaller or never happened to see, Real soft field that you thought was a whole lot more stable than it is. Snow machine jumping up over the berm onto the strip to meet you so they can give you a ride?
Those are the ones that come very brightly from my memory's
GT
M6RV6 offline
User avatar
Posts: 2313
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:52 pm
Location: Rice Wa. 82WN Magee Creek AERODROME
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... sWKXuhKlg2
Have as much Fun as is Safe, and Keep SMILIN! GT,

Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

How about dragging a ski landing spot with the trim wrong for full throttle departure? In my 170, it doesn't matter. In a 185 or higher horse 180...?
onceAndFutr_alaskaflyer offline
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:23 pm
Location: Keweenaw Peninsula, Michigan and Carson Valley, Nevada

Re: Tail Draggin Endorsment!!

Its pretty cool to see a thread only 7 days old have close to 1500 views...

Out again today for a lot of laps in the wind.

I am liking the full 40 deg of flaps in all conditions, however, 20 works just as well with the stiff wind and you can keep the same air speed. After reading the go around stuff this am, actually did some today just as wheel touched with both 40 and 20 deg flaps and trim (in my plane) is just aft of center on landing and on take off. Seems like thats where she likes it. Did a few with the trim further back and its just not a normal feel. Same goes for the landing. I have always been told that you should not have to argue with the aircraft and to fly the plane. Holding your speed of 65-70 on base to final feels good, wind or not, 20 or 40 deg, and crossing the threshold at or around 50 is also a good feel. Thinking the plane is touching down at an honest 45 or so. I am also a fan of the steeper approach. Engine quits, can you make it? Where we like to land, not making it, is not an option.

I am no expert in this aircraft (yet) however, it does fly (not land) a lot like my last plane that I had almost 2000 hours in. Same STOL kit, etc. Only this beast has VG's. They (the VG's) by the way are unreal from what I can tell. This plane really feels like a rocket ship on departure and extremely responsive on final at 60.

People always talk about the 900 or 1000 ft needed, but honestly (and zero arrogance here trust me) the plane is landing in 500 ft (not that i would go into a 500' strip). I rolled out the landing area with our indicator and the landings have been consistent...and were are 6000 feet here. The 182 did the same, this aircraft is just better. It gets off the ground in the same or less as well (just me and 30 g of fuel) Full of fuel was taking about 600' (no wind) to get off.

Anyway, the discussion here has been really great! I do realize there is a lot of experience here on the site but is everyone really out flying everyday? Go out and try the various stuff the thread here is talking about and then come back and tell us what your plane does. I am really curious. Each aircraft is so much different from the other with very different mods etc.

It sure is fun talking about this stuff anyway. I am obsessed!

Thanks!
aktahoe1 offline
User avatar
Posts: 2052
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Alaska and Lake Tahoe = aktahoe
If it looks smooth, it might be. If it looks rough, it is...www.bigtirepilot.com ...www.alaskaheliski.com

DISPLAY OPTIONS

PreviousNext
84 postsPage 2 of 51, 2, 3, 4, 5

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests

Latest Features

Latest Knowledge Base