Hi all,

I was wondering what is the max crosswind that you taildragger pilots feel comfortable with?

In my Musketeer I can deal with a 20 knot crosswind and a 25 knot crosswind if I work at it.

-Todd Giencke

During my sign off my instructor and i were doing t&l's in 35 knot winds gusts to 45. I wasn't so sure but he didn't seem to mind. Something about being the only plane in the air is a little unerving. The rollout is the tricky part.

Dusty wrote:During my sign off my instructor and i were doing t&l's in 35 knot winds gusts to 45.

Ok. what was the crosswind component?

-Todd Giencke

Dusty wrote:During my sign off my instructor and i were doing t&l's in 35 knot winds gusts to 45. I wasn't so sure but he didn't seem to mind. Something about being the only plane in the air is a little unerving. The rollout is the tricky part.

35G45 Direct crosswind?????

In my Part 135 Cessna 207 days, 45 KTS direct was about max for my comfort level, and that was on ice (preferably), snow or gravel, and winds that speed in any direction on pavement made me sit up and pay real close attention... I'd do it too in a C180/185, but not with the same ease as the 207, and if possible, I'd cancel the flight rather than risk bending the airplane.

On ice it's actually pretty easy. Roll on the upwind wheel and when all three are on the ground you start sliding sideways. Throttle keeps you in the center of the runway. Start drifting, use the gas to pull to the center, or get too close the other way, ease up and let the wind push you back. Do it once or twice and you'll find it's really pretty simple and natural.

But... You can't do that on pavement!!!!!

Gump

Gump,

Yep, that works, right up till you hit that little patch of dry pavement, where there's a bare spot-no ice.

I landed a 185 with wheel skis once on an icy runway. Looked down and noted that the left wheel wasn't turning. Oh Oh. Then we hit the dry spot. Fortunately, it was just a brake with ice on it, and it broke loose pretty soon, but not before a little swerve . No damage and never left the runway, though.

Your crosswind limit is specific to YOU and to the airplane. In some airplanes, lots of wind is a piece of cake. Others, watch out.

On gravel, grass or pavement, or ice, as Gump notes?

Gusty or steady? Huge difference in what you can handle. How big a gust factor?

Too many variables to give a hard number.

But, if its my airplane, its a taildragger, and its much more than a ten or twelve knot direct component, with gusts, I'm gonna do something else, unless I really feel good, or I'm on grass or gravel. Grass or gravel I'll be pretty brave.

Or ice. Pavement sucks. I think paved runways should be outlawed, except at CLass B primary airports.

You guys can be brave all you want, but there's almost always an alternative somewhere close.

MTV

Sorry should've thought about that The crosswind was probably between 25 and 30. But it was moving alot wish i could be more specific for you. It was way more wind than i would have ever flown in alone.Joe my instructor has about 13,000 hours all in classic taildraggers. He said more than once hed flown his 170 in much higher crosswind w/ no trouble as long as he paid attention. Apparently the capability of the airplane is well beyond that of the pilot.

mtv wrote:Gump,

Yep, that works, right up till you hit that little patch of dry pavement, where there's a bare spot-no ice.
Pavement sucks. I think paved runways should be outlawed, except at CLass B primary airports.
You guys can be brave all you want, but there's almost always an alternative somewhere close.

MTV

Oh yeah, like I said... Ice makes you look good and it all seem easy. Pavement sucks pond water, and if it's blowing hard I aim for the dirt.

Fortunately, up North, or even down here in the wilds of Nevada, there's a lot of dirt to go play on.

Gump

mtv wrote:Too many variables to give a hard number.

Pavement sucks. I think paved runways should be outlawed, except at CLass B primary airports.

I'm with you I wish all small airports were grass. It just feels better looking over grass, than a long parking lot.

Yea I should have said on pavement and say 7 knot gusts.

What I'm trying to get a feel for is the tradeoff I'm going to make going to a tailwheel. With a nosewheel/dragger/picker/plow I don't worry about wind. I just make the best of what mother nature gives me.

Well.. I don't play with thunderstorms in the area.

With a tailwheel say a Maule M-5-180 or a Stinson 108 at what point am I going to have to start worrying about winds?

-Todd Giencke

I'm with jr on this one. I've been doing this for 37 years, and I still don't like crosswinds, especially gusty ones in a taildragger. Call me a wuss if you'd like, I could care less.

I landed at Fleming Field the other day in a gusty, nasty crosswind, on pavement and it was one of the uglier landings I've made in a while. Mind you, I never felt like I was losing control, but it just sucks to blush when you taxi past the kid on the mower alongside the taxiway who has a shit-eating grin on his clock....

At first, any wind is bad. Then you build up your skills, and become more capable. Then, every once in a while, the dang thing will humble you once more, just to remind you to pay attention.

I find that some of my best landings are in pretty ugly winds, cause I am cocked and locked. It's when youve got that three knot quartering tailwind on a beautiful sunny day that'll humble you at times, cause you are complacent.

As the man said, you have to fly a taildragger from the chocks to the chocks, every minute of every flight.

MTV

mtv wrote:I landed at Fleming Field the other day in a gusty, nasty crosswind, on pavement and it was one of the uglier landings I've made in a while. Mind you, I never felt like I was losing control, but it just sucks to blush when you taxi past the kid on the mower alongside the taxiway who has a shit-eating grin on his clock....

By chance was it to look at one of the CAP 180hp 172's that are going on auction on the 10th.

Or was it to go to Wipaire?

-Todd Giencke

mtv wrote:Pavement sucks. I think paved runways should be outlawed, except at CLass B primary airports.
MTV

Class B's usually have a good choice of taxiways that work better than some of those parking lot sized hunks of concrete. Trouble is, talking 'em into using them...

Mark

I was flying my 170 with a Horton STOL 2 Falls ago with my mother in Interior Alaska at 8:00 p.m. A storm was moving in from the south and I should have headed home immediately but didn't. The winds were 150 at 11 gusting to 15. 15 minutes later while on downwind(x-wind actually) for gravel 06 they were 19 gusting to 23. I did a low pass over the runway to see the amount of control required to keep her straight and did not have enough input on the controls. I decided that if I couldn't keep it straight I would try for the Bravo taxiway or a island 3 miles down the Yukon. I kept it straight and made the gravel before my predetermined touchdown point(at which I would have went to plan B if I wasn't on the ground yet) and cautiously stopped at the end and got on the taxi way. My left leg was a shaking and it took me nearly 10 minutes to taxi as I had to brake every 3-4 seconds to keep from weathervaning. Glad to be tied up and I now know that that is my limit. I do not want to have to go through that again.

Jon

In most heavier stuff, direct 25/30 cross is nearly enough. 180's and 185's are pretty good, bigger stuff like Beavers with slab sides are OK up to about that. If it's any more than that you can usually land across the strip or on a taxiway that's more into wind. I'd prefere tailwheels in very strong winds, it's a matter of personal preference.

Today I was working with up to 25 knot direct crosswinds with a nose wheel with no real problems, had to stir it a bit with the ailerons to use the aileron drag to pull the wing into wind. Did 70 landings and knocked off at 2.30pm.

With a tailwheel say a Maule M-5-180

My POH says 12 knots in a Maule M5 180C but doesn't say grass or pavement. Based on my experience that is just about right for grass. I have found my Maule to be just terrible on pavement with much of a direct crosswind at all. I try and stick to grass all the time.

Student Pilot wrote:In most heavier stuff, direct 25/30 cross is nearly enough. 180's and 185's are pretty good, bigger stuff like Beavers with slab sides are OK up to about that. If it's any more than that you can usually land across the strip or on a taxiway that's more into wind. I'd prefere tailwheels in very strong winds, it's a matter of personal preference.

Today I was working with up to 25 knot direct crosswinds with a nose wheel with no real problems, had to stir it a bit with the ailerons to use the aileron drag to pull the wing into wind. Did 70 landings and knocked off at 2.30pm.

Ok, I'll bite...

Is this on Microsoft Flight Sim or ???

Mark

N6EA wrote:Is this on Microsoft Flight Sim or ???

Mark

In a Fletcher, I normally don't work in the hills with that sort of wind but we've had a run of bad weather. Did 64 ton in 67 loads, had to download because of the wind. Did a landing at the job and another back home after so I did exagerate, I only did 69 landings.

If you want to know what the x-wind component is for a tail dragger, read the POH. I'm dubious of anyone's claim that they are landing in an actual 20 knot direct x-wind, but I've seen enough people do things I knew weren't possible to realize the value of my opinion.

I'm sure there are wunder pilots who can compensate for this, but after about 17 knots of direct cross-wind I don't have enough rudder to stay straight at 70 knots IAS, much less at a full stall. Round tails are cute, but perhaps not the most assertive.

While it may not matter on paper, I think density altitude is a very real issue with cross wind landings. Touching down with nothing left in the rudder-bank is a bit more serious when you're doing 75mph across the ground... you have the same marginal control input with a whole lot more kinetic energy and less reaction time.

While the "plane may be more capable than the pilot", the POH gives a maximum cross wind component which was derived by a team of test pilots who likely fly better than average. Anyone who thinks they can actually out-perform the numbers in the POH better be damn well insured and quick to forgive themselves.

ravi,

Actually, the demonstrated crosswind component listed in the POH is pretty much an "Oh by the way" sort of thing.

It is not regulatory, and it is decidedly NOT the crosswind limit of the airplane, generally.

The way it is derived is that it is simply the biggest crosswind that the test pilot encountered during his normal flight test routine. The manufacturers don't go looking for crosswinds to buff up their numbers on this, cause it's pretty meaningless anyway.

So, you can tell the airplanes that are manufactured in Kansas, since they always have a big number. The ones made in Washington have pretty low numbers, cause they just didn't find much wind during the flight test.

Those numbers are all over the place. I know of one tri gear airplane that has an 11 knot x wind component.

Note that the operative term here is "Demonstrated Crosswind component". Not limiting.

MTV

MTV,
Once again I have proven my mastery of knowledge and experience... I thought they set up fans or something

ravi wrote:If you want to know what the x-wind component is for a tail dragger, read the POH. I'm dubious of anyone's claim that they are landing in an actual 20 knot direct x-wind.

All I can say is, get a Part 135 job flying the Cessnas or Pipers, either tri-gear or conventional, and go out and fly eight hours a day, every day, for a few years. What these little airplanes can do (and what you discover YOU can do) will amaze you.

Gump