I had a great conversation with a shop that has a lot of experience with TCM starter adapters. I was quizzing them about TCM starter adapters and options for my IO360. Some key points:

The classic style adapter is superior to the new style.

Don't run camguard because it will ruin your starter adapter.

Kickback occurs with lightweight props because they don't have the "flywheel" effect that metal props do.

The IO360 adapter doesn't have the failure problems the bigger engine adapters do because it has a higher gear ratio (24:1). It spins the engine faster which makes kickback less likely to happen. A shop can modify the 470/520/550 adapters to a higher ratio so kickback isn't as likely. That might be for experimental aircraft only.

My adapter has a vacuum pad on it. I need to be sure to use a vacuum pump that has a fiber gear because the steel gear will wear the gear inside the adapter and ruin it. If the adapter gear is already showing signs of wear then I can buy a newer style pump which engages the adapter gear deeper thereby reaching past the screwed up portion of the adapter gear.

Thanks for making that call Whee, good information.

Camguard will ruin a starter adapter? Is this the case for Lycomings too? What's the pathology on that one?

Zzz wrote:Camguard will ruin a starter adapter? Is this the case for Lycomings too? What's the pathology on that one?

First I've heard of this as well.

If camguard can get to a lycoming starter adapter, I think it would be obvious that it as bad stuff.

Lycs don't have a starter adapter like a TCM does.

It was explained to me like this. Years ago Lyc came out with an additive that made the oil more slippery. Phosphate was the main ingredient. They said it could be used in all their engines except those with an internal clutch like the helicopter engines. A starter adapter is basically a type of clutch and camguard is ~25% phosphate. The phosphate will cause the adapter to slip which will wear it out quickly.

Zzz wrote:Camguard will ruin a starter adapter? Is this the case for Lycomings too? What's the pathology on that one?

I don't think Lyc's have any engine with a starter adapter....

The horrors of the new model TCM starter adapter are well known, particularly on the bigger engines. It's the spring which breaks, as I understand it, when it kicks back. Leaving little bits of spring potentially inside your crank case, maybe.

Lots of threads on this issue on this forum.

To nit-pick the detail, the chance of having a kickback isn't a question of how fast the starter spins. It's a question of the ignition system you have. If you have a old-school starter key or defective shower of sparks / impulse system, beware.

It's the starter's ability to deal with the kickback which counts, and I guess the gearing must help, when a kickback happens. I've had one kickback in about 300 starts. It was because of an old and sticky impulse coupling (again, the spring was broken)....

It's one of the things I like about the Lyc design of the external ring gear, and embarrassingly forgot when posting above. Red face.

The starting system is one thing I really don't like about TCM engines but do like about the Lyc.

I've heard the same regarding running 15/50 Aeroshell and wrecking TCM adapters. Don't know if that one can be substantiated either.

wonder when mine is gonna be wrecked? 500 hrs with camgard.

I've heard the same regarding running 15/50 Aeroshell and wrecking TCM adapters.

A friend of a friend that used to be at Penn Yan engine rebuild told me the same thing.

A very high proportion of the 6,000+ strong Cirrus fleet runs Camguard in the IO550D on the SR22 and the IO360 on the SR20. Never heard of it causing a problem. I personally got over 2900 hours out of my IO550D in my SR22 and replaced the starter adapter due to slipping once, at close to 2,000 hours.

I posted this issue on the Cirrus forum. It will be interesting to hear from powerplant thought leaders like Mike Busch and others. I like Niagara but I'm afraid Ron may have stirred a hornet's nest with that comment. Continental motors has officially started testing Camguard. Should be interesting.

Pierre

Pierre_R wrote:I posted this issue on the Cirrus forum. It will be interesting to hear from powerplant thought leaders like Mike Busch and others.

I was a little concerned something like this might happen. I think a lot of outfits are tight lipped because they get bashed on internet forums after someone posts info they got during a conversation with that outfit. In the interest of keeping the source of this info willing to share their wealth of knowledge I'm going to edit my original post so it does not name them. If anyone else named them I'd appreciate it if you edited your post too.

Pierre_R wrote:A very high proportion of the 6,000+ strong Cirrus fleet runs Camguard in the IO550D on the SR22 and the IO360 on the SR20. Never heard of it causing a problem. I personally got over 2900 hours out of my IO550D in my SR22 and replaced the starter adapter due to slipping once, at close to 2,000 hours.

I don't have enough experience with adapters to make an educated decision so I will believe the guy whose business is overhauling starter adapters. 'Run camguad...it will keep money in my pocket.'

Pierre, if this post comes across negative towards you I apologize. I certainly appreciate your experience and willingness to share it. I equally appreciate shops that are willing to share their experience and want to keep that info flowing.

Really interesting Whee, I was talked out of the "classic" style starter drive adapter by the same person. As far as the 24:1 mod it's not certified yet. Both starter drives are a weak design IMO, though it sounds like there will be some other options in the future.

Skaly, I thought that was interesting too. When he said that I remembered your post about using the new style and was kinda confused. I should have asked him about it but didn't. My thought is the classic style is more reliable but its failure mode puts the entire engine at risk. The new style isn't as robust but when it fails it is less likely to damage the engine. Knowing these things will fail at some point it seems like having the new style would be good.

whee wrote:....My adapter has a vacuum pad on it. I need to be sure to use a vacuum pump that has a fiber gear because the steel gear will wear the gear inside the adapter and ruin it.....

Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest here, but I assume you are gonna be running a vacuum pump to power a DG & artificial horizon? Are you an IFR pilot, or do you plan to become one? Personally I would leave off the vacuum pump and gyros. IMHO having IFR capabilities can easily lead a VFR-only pilot or for that matter a non-current IFR pilot into risky situations, figuring "well I can always go on instruments". Go watch that "178 Seconds to Live" (or whatever) video about VFR-into-IMC accidents. I removed the vacuum system & gyros from my last two airplanes (C170 & C150/150TD), even though I got some "don't do it-- you'll kill yourself!" comments, and have thought about doing the same with my C180. I am no IFR pilot and don't wanna be one, and I'm pretty sure that I would quickly turn into a statistic if I tried to pretend I was one.

Hmm. Never heard of Camguard causing starter adapter failures. Seems to me that there's got to be more variables at play here: adapter design (new/old), adapter age, starter, timing, propeller weight just to start. I have used cam guard for several hundred hours on my o470 with no starter adapter issues. I run the Phillips oil with it as Mike Busch espouses.

The good news is that TCM is doing a huge test of Camguard right now, so we'll get some good data soon.

Edit: I did a quick google, and found this in the ASL Camguard FAQ, for what it's worth:

Q: Will CamGuard Aviation affect my Continental starter adapter?
CamGuard Aviation uses no friction modifier additives. This is intentional because of the friction fit Continental starter adapters. A slipping starter adapter is a sign of wear on the internal components of the adapter. By preventing the wear of these components, CamGuard Aviation will prolong the life of Continental starter adapters.

hotrod180 wrote:

whee wrote:....My adapter has a vacuum pad on it. I need to be sure to use a vacuum pump that has a fiber gear because the steel gear will wear the gear inside the adapter and ruin it.....

Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest here, but I assume you are gonna be running a vacuum pump to power a DG & artificial horizon? Are you an IFR pilot, or do you plan to become one? Personally I would leave off the vacuum pump and gyros. IMHO having IFR capabilities can easily lead a VFR-only pilot or for that matter a non-current IFR pilot into risky situations, figuring "well I can always go on instruments". Go watch that "178 Seconds to Live" (or whatever) video about VFR-into-IMC accidents. I removed the vacuum system & gyros from my last two airplanes (C170 & C150/150TD), even though I was "don't do it-- you'll kill yourself!", and have thought about doing the same with my C180. I am no IFR pilot and don't wanna be one, and I'm pretty sure that I would quickly turn into a statistic if I tried to pretend I was one.

I have no intention to run a vacuum system. I was just sharing that information for those that are running a vacuum pump off their starter adapter.

I seem to recall hearing comments about some oil additives, and even some oils, adding enough slipperiness (is that a word?) to cause the starter adapter to slip. My C180 has been run for about 1200 hours with W100 & Camguard and the starter works fine.

No offense taken. I didn't attribute anything, I just wanted to get some feedback from some of the highly knowledgeable folks who frequent another forum. I have bought two rebuilt adapters from Niagara and they have been excellent to deal with and I very much appreciate their advice. My local A&P will only get rebuilt adapters from them. I've also spoken in the past with Ed Kollin, inventor of Camguard, and he's been very helpful to me, especially regarding a ring flush procedure to unstick rings.

There are two different failure modes being discussed at once in this thread. To disambiguate, the original post is about worn out adapters. Specifically, the shaft wears to the point that the spring slips. This is detectable when you crank and observe hesitation or slipping, then crank again and it starts. At the first sign of this, you should plan to exchange your SA ASAP.

The other failure is a snapped spring. This is a sudden catastrophic failure that occurs without warning, usually due to kickback while the SA is engaged, and there is no recovery. The starter will just spin and no longer crank the engine. If you have to reposition the aircraft to work on it, you'll be practicing your hand-propping skills.

The concern expressed by Ron at Niagara has to do with the former failure mode: a worn out SA shaft. Yes, as it gets worn, then the "slipperier" your oil, the sooner that will show up. So, a not-so-slick oil may allow you to run longer with more wear on the SA shaft. On the other hand, slicker oil is generally good for almost every other engine component.

Here are some comments from some A&P friends:

"Starter drives thrive on friction...

Some really don't like Aeroshell 15W50...

Go figure

Cams, valve guides and internal corrosion are harder to fix than starter drives...

YMMV based on storage and use conditions....perhaps using only when necessary off season and after the 1st 5 hours post oil/filter change..."

"The starter adapter on TCM motors was designed last century in a world with different lubrication. It is an antique and should have been redesigned decades ago. All part of continuing to fly these antique power plants."

"I would normalize data this way: if they were using lightweight starters and not TCM Energizers, then they should not be surprised it wore out early. It's a simple function of running the starter for a longer duration to get the engine to turn over then the heavy energizer starter would otherwise. I have thousands of hours of data before using Camguard and after. I also only have had Energizer starters on all of my engines. The only time the adapter came off of the engine was at 2500 hours and it was because I removed it not because it had to be removed. I kept the engine 1000 hours after that. There's a data point."