EZFlap wrote:I feel very strongly that such a computer sim and/or rolling trainer are ideas very well worth pursuing, and would be great tools to allow the students to develop their reactions and instincts faster.

What's a "rolling ground trainer"?

I think sims are great for instrument training (in fact, I think they are in many ways *better* than being in the airplane), but I've never used one that was accurate enough for the parts of tailwheel that are hard (crosswinds, landing), so I'm more skeptical about that.

I find the people, who I have met, that use sims do not fly well in small airplanes. Just my opinion. Better stay with the real deal for bush ops.

Although sims are good for basic check outs (on procedures only) in really complex aircraft. That, I agree on.

I had instruction for TW during my PPL, and I agree its not a 'black art' with a bit of practice (although the last time I ever piloted a TW ship was decades ago).

I avoided even getting close to bending an airplane back then thanks to the instruction. On the other hand, I took up hang gliding from books, and although I lived, I did end up with a few bent down tubes in the garage to memorialize the first several months of fun.

I know several folks who jumped right into a TW ship after their PPL with no additional training (or insurance, frankly) with no notable problems. Although I think there is a lot of fun in learning as you go, I know I'll be needing/getting training if I ever want to go back to flying a a TW.

lesuther wrote:I had instruction for TW during my PPL, and I agree its not a 'black art' with a bit of practice (although the last time I ever piloted a TW ship was decades ago).

I avoided even getting close to bending an airplane back then thanks to the instruction. On the other hand, I took up hang gliding from books, and although I lived, I did end up with a few bent down tubes in the garage to memorialize the first several months of fun.

I know several folks who jumped right into a TW ship after their PPL with no additional training (or insurance, frankly) with no notable problems. Although I think there is a lot of fun in learning as you go, I know I'll be needing/getting training if I ever want to go back to flying a a TW.

My insurance company required 10 hours dual, added to the sign off, before they let me solo in a tailwheel. "Three point landings" I could of taught myself but, "wheel landings" needed some good dual before I felt proficient to go solo. Instructors were needed for me. I agree with the FAA and Avemco.

Wipaire C3000A Skis I went solo on first time. Nobody I knew in Oregon could teach me. Would not recommended it!

I enjoy going for a spin with a good instructor and learned something each time. I just wanted to point out that flying a TW isn't all that hard, even I can do it. Going up with a highly skilled instructor is a great experience but I don't think you need to go out with a CFI every time you want to try something new.

There are a couple areas of aviating that I have been struggling to get good at and I know with time I can do it on my own. However, this summer I plan to spend some significant time with a CFI, whom in my mind is one of the best in the country, because #1: I'm tired of the slow progress I am making, #2: He is a blast to fly with, #3: He is cheap, never paid more than $50 for a flight review from him, and #4: He is planning to hang it up this fall when his CFI expires.

rw2 wrote:
What's a "rolling ground trainer"?

Cheapest one is your car. Drive it in reverse, and it somewhat simulates ONE of the many aspects of handling taildraggers, that being "divergent in yaw / instability". But...

What I was thinking about is something like a go-kart or other wheeled vehicle, which would be built specifically with two main wheels and a steerable tailwheel. A small lawnmower or generator engine and propeller (guarded by a cage like your living room fan or paramotor fan), would allow it to get up to some reasonable speed. You would have a rudder hooked up to the pedals just like an airplane. No wings, no leaving the ground, and a big roll bar and safety harness around the victim... er... trainee. You could drive it around a large clear airport ramp, or up and down an unused runway, and develop quick reactions.

Of course this does not factor in wind, lift, pitch and roll control, etc. etc. It's just one tool that can help teach one aspect of a complex problem. However, for a private pilot who is already competent in a tricycle aircraft, I suspect the yaw instability and developing reaction time on the rudder, is the biggest single skill you don't already have.

This would be a great EAA chapter project in my opinion. A few lengths of mild steel tube, someone's old clapped out Briggs & Stratton 18HP engine, and a Gee Bee paint job!

EZFlap wrote:Of course this does not factor in wind, lift, pitch and roll control, etc. etc. It's just one tool that can help teach one aspect of a complex problem. However, for a private pilot who is already competent in a tricycle aircraft, I suspect the yaw instability and developing reaction time on the rudder, is the biggest single skill you don't already have.

Certainly was in my case. Great idea!

I did some training at Deer Valley and my CFI did something like that in an unused ramp https://maps.google.com/maps?q=deer+valley+airport&ll=33.690103,-112.088892&spn=0.003181,0.004265&fb=1&gl=us&hq=deer+valley+airport&hnear=deer+valley+airport&cid=0,0,13844613666570335445&t=h&z=18. Was very cool to be able to ground loop at safe speeds to get a feel for what it feels like and how much the airplane can move before becoming uncontrollable.

Just a few days more than 1 year ago I made the deal and bought my 180H in Anchorage at Merrill Field. With the previous owner standing in the hanger (I think quietly lamenting the sale) I was on the phone with Avemco. I already knew at this point how much dual I was going to need. The previous owner who was a 20,000 plus hour pilot, and a CFII, had agreed to give me instruction for my TW endorsement. After insurance was all lined up, and I added him as a named pilot, we climbed into the plane.

He had me take it very slow taxing, I did a number of S turns down the taxiway and seemed to be handling it pretty well. After about 1/2 an hour taxing around he decided we should go fly.

I taxied the plane into position on 16. We went throught the pre-takeoff checklist. I set the flaps to 20 degrees, then slowly added power and started rolling. This was awesome it had all the power I wanted. I was rolling straight down the center line, when the tail came up "All hell broke loose". Now it might be that I listened to closely to those people who said "when the tail comes up the "P" factor is extreme" or maybe it was because I had my hunting boots on like some others said after the fact. What ever the reason the plane took a severe turn to the right, I found myself heading for the right edge of the runway at a high rate of speed. It all happened very fast but I do remember just barely into this fiasco, I saw Ken take the controls. I watched very close to what he was doing, those pedals were working he firewalled the throttle (which I had pulled at the start) and he was pulling back on the yoke but not all the way but back. Next thing I know we are feet from the right edge of 16 and I can feel the tail coming around to the right and then suddenly we are airborne.

Once in the air he does what needs to be done prop, manifold etc. I'm feeling like dog crap, he turns to me and says as calmly as if we were having a cup of coffee "don't let that shake you you'll get it". And we proceeded to do stalls etc and flew up to Birchwood and did multiple landings and made it back to Merrill in one piece.

My point in telling this story is if he had not been in the plane I probably would have wrecked it.

Thanks Ken,

Marty

Kevin

The difficulty you experienced as the tail came up isn't a result of P-Factor. As the tail rises to a more horizontal longitudinal alignment, P-Factor actually decreases, because both propellor blades are now experiencing a more equal AOA.

What is really causing the majority of that left turn, is due to gyroscopic effect. The spinning prop now has the characteristics of a gyro. When the force applied to it during the coarse of the tail rising, the force is imparted 90 degrees of rotation later. (Remember your first CFI showing you the spinning bike wheel trick?) The airplane also become more susceptible to any yaw causing forces because the tailwheel is not longer tracking on the ground, providing some resistance to X/W, P-Factor, or any other yaw inducing forces.

The larger the diameter of the prop and the greater the mass of the prop the greater the gyro effect.

Always remember the danger of losing directional control is much greater on landing as you slow from flying speeds to taxi speeds. Keep your feet dancing, and always pay 110% attention.

Enjoy the pleasure only a TW can bring, But always treat her like an Ex-Girlfriend. You can love her, but never trust her!

Jughead

A composite prop (less weight) has less gyroscopic effect than a heavy aluminum constant speed prop. Length being equal.

More reason for an MT!

8GCBC wrote:

lesuther wrote:I had instruction for TW during my PPL, and I agree its not a 'black art' with a bit of practice (although the last time I ever piloted a TW ship was decades ago).

I avoided even getting close to bending an airplane back then thanks to the instruction. On the other hand, I took up hang gliding from books, and although I lived, I did end up with a few bent down tubes in the garage to memorialize the first several months of fun.

I know several folks who jumped right into a TW ship after their PPL with no additional training (or insurance, frankly) with no notable problems. Although I think there is a lot of fun in learning as you go, I know I'll be needing/getting training if I ever want to go back to flying a a TW.

My insurance company required 10 hours dual, added to the sign off, before they let me solo in a tailwheel. "Three point landings" I could of taught myself but, "wheel landings" needed some good dual before I felt proficient to go solo. Instructors were needed for me. I agree with the FAA and Avemco.

Wipaire C3000A Skis I went solo on first time. Nobody I knew in Oregon could teach me. Would not recommended it!

I flew a half hour or less in a legend cub with the owner on airglas skis, then a few weeks later flew my champ on federals. There is no additional sign off or anything for skis.


Tom

What's it like on a simulator when you put that TW plane out in the weeds on takeoff?
Never flown a simulator but I CAN tell you what it's like out in the weeds!
HC

The proposed taildragger back country simulator can be programmed with all sorts of fun stuff if you go off into the weeds. Horrible noises, terrified deer and moose crapping and running away, angry bears clawing you as you go by, etc.

I've never flown a light airplane simulator, so I can only guess how realistic it can be. The visuals are pretty good for today's electronics probably.

The only one I ever flew was a 727 motion sim at Delta Airlines LAX facility (a friend was a sim check IP). I can assure you from embarrassing personal experience that it is absolutely terrifying when a "little airplane" pilot pulls all the power back too soon on landing, the 727 stops flying immediately, and just destroys the 405 freeway, Sepulveda Blvd., and three gas stations. I'm not sure they had enough electrons to put Los Angeles back together afterwards.

EZFlap wrote:

rw2 wrote:....What I was thinking about is something like a go-kart or other wheeled vehicle, which would be built specifically with two main wheels and a steerable tailwheel. A small lawnmower or generator engine and propeller (guarded by a cage like your living room fan or paramotor fan), would allow it to get up to some reasonable speed. You would have a rudder hooked up to the pedals just like an airplane. No wings, no leaving the ground, and a big roll bar and safety harness around the victim... er... trainee. You could drive it around a large clear airport ramp, or up and down an unused runway, and develop quick reactions........

Save yourself a lot of trouble & just buy an old rear-wheel-steering forklift. When I was a kid, I was in a hurry to put things away at quitting time and groundlooped a 1940 Clark lift truck right into the side of the shop where I worked. Didn't hurt the airplane, I mean forklift, but it poked a couple holes right through the metal siding on the building and earned me a pretty good ass-chewing from the boss. Many t/w forklift (and airplane) hours later, I can still say that was my first & only groundloop.